Future employers may look at SAT scores

Test Preparation
41

<ol>
<li><p>The Giver is not about making the world 'idealistic'. Its a hell world. Maybe you should rethink it- giving college admissions to people because you think they deserve it, even though other applicants are better, can be thought of as idealistic.</p></li>
<li><p>"in order for america to flourish in today's world, diversity in colleges must increase,..." America is faltering in the worlds economy, and jobs are moving overseas, leaving extremely well educated people unemployed. That is not because of lack of diversity. It is because there are people in 3rd and 2nd world countries who will work their a$$es off for their job for lower wages because they have that work ethic.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>GIVING PEOPLE ADMISSIONS TO COLLEGES DOES NOT FOSTER WORK ETHIC!</p>

<p>Oh, and did anybody read my posts? My basic idea is that people should be able to give their money to minority poor kids when they are young, so they can learn to love learning and get good classes in high school and earlier, and then EARN their admissions. I want the population of minorities in colleges to soar- I think that would be excellent for them and for the country. But they have to deserve that.</p>

42

<p>My family is from India, and we arrived in the United States and I was born shortly after. We came with almost nothing save ourselves--my dad worked at minimum wage at Duke University, my mom was too busy taking care of my brother and I because we were very young. Despite the fact that my parents graduated from accredited medical schools in India, our family income was below the poverty line. Later we moved to NYC--my mom worked as a baby-sitter for a child of Brazilian immigrants $1 an hour while my dad struggled to make ends meet. Both my parents eventually established themselves as successful doctors. For me this has been an exemplary testament to the effects of focus and determination. The key to achieving anything worthwhile in life is through challenging oneself and reaching out for goals.</p>

<p>** Don't accuse me of being of an overidealistic dreamer, xindianx, because my parents were minorities who succeeded w/o AA. **</p>

43

<p>hey try this one, MY PARENTS DIDNT EVEN GO TO COLLEGE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND MY DAD HAD TO LEAVE COLLEGE IN INDIA CUZ HE DIDNT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY, NEITHER MY MOM OR MY DAD HAS A DEGREE, im not accusing you of ANYTHING, i am totally happy that your parents just like mine succeeded, and i hope u and i do as well, i am an optimist, its not like pessimistic, of course one should challenge themself and go for what is best, i am all up for it, i have no pity for ppl that just dun care and dun want to try harder in life to acheive goals, this freakin argument is about the ppl that DO try and DO want those goals but are being BLOCKADED from striving to the best of their abilities</p>

<p>"My basic idea is that people should be able to give their money to minority poor kids when they are young, so they can learn to love learning and get good classes in high school and earlier, and then EARN their admissions. I want the population of minorities in colleges to soar- I think that would be excellent for them and for the country. But they have to deserve that."</p>

<p>SECOND OFF, WHERE THE HELL ARE U GONNA GET THAT MONEY SON? CUZ I KNO SURE AS HELL AMERICAN TAXPAYERS ARE FED UP PAYING TAX, and with these republicans, o helll no ur not getting **** money for the minorities, i wud LOVE IT if wat u said came true, o hell i wud praise ur arguement to any court in the u.s, BUT GIVE ME A FReAKIN BREAK OUR COUNTRY IS IN OVER 3 TRILLION DOLLARS OF DEBT, go ahead and find that money ur talkin bout and find a way to distribute it amongst the economically disadvantaged! i will def. screw aa if u or anyone in this country can pull that off</p>

44

<p>"My basic idea is that people should be able to give their money to minority poor kids when they are young, so they can learn to love learning and get good classes in high school and earlier, and then EARN their admissions. I want the population of minorities in colleges to soar- I think that would be excellent for them and for the country. But they have to deserve that."</p>

<p>(Originally posted by ::tj:: )</p>

<p>Very intelligently stated. Instead of lowering the bar for disadvantaged minorities, with ** private, grass-roots efforts <a href="like%20giving%20$$%20to%20disadvantaged%20children%20when%20they%20are%20young,%20the%20United%20Negro%20College%20Fund%20or%20the%20Teach%20for%20America%20program:%20%5Burl%5Dhttp://www.teachforamerica.org/flash_movie.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;/b&lt;/a>, more and more minorities will be accepted at colleges and universities meeting or ** exceeding the standards for admission required by the school. ** These individuals will bring diversity to campus (something that xindianx deeply cares about) and will serve as great examples, as bright beacons of hope, to the younger generations of minorities.</p>

45

<p>o yes very intelligently stated, lol try that in politics and ull get ripped apart...i don't think the teach for america program will work, that's my frank opinion...the money won't get to where it needs to go, corruption will be prevalent, there will be mass cases which determine who receives money and who doesn't, wat factors are involved, where the money is coming from in order to provide the millions of people that need it, how the parents will take care of the money, etc etc etc, the problems exceed limits...i mean what happenend to bush's "no child left behind plan," not just bush, everyone has their lil plans, never seem to work huh? i</p>

<p>ps...then again if it works, congrats =)</p>

46

<p>Yes, these Republicans do seem to have crazy ideas about taxes. Not that they seem to care about spending, do they?</p>

<p>xindianx, let me tell you something. We are spending 1 billion a day on the war in Iraq (I may have that figure wrong, but I think thats correct). Maybe we should cut it out and spend a few weeks giving that kind of money on the program I suggested.</p>

<p>Amazing how I would get ripped apart trying to fund something that could help economically challenged kids get ahead in life, but we can spend it easily on a way which we only recently found a reasonable reason to fight. Go figure.</p>

<p>Not that I want to start a discussion fighting over the war. Just an observation.</p>

47

<p>o baby, i TOTALLY agree with you tj, and i have actually argued that same point, but then you are getting into sectors where u just dun wanna mess with ( i did it, and i got in trouble lol, started flaming bush and the judge told me to sit down hahaha)...but yea of course, we shudnt be having a war, if we are trying to bring democracy and liberation around the world, we shud have it in or own country no? too bad we don't, and this diversity problem is just one example of false democracy in america, that's why i think college adcoms have picked the lesser of all evils, and in that i mean affirmative action, thats simply why i support it, i can list a ca drillion other options if they were plausible, but theyre not......i mean a real quick example that a few of you may have read in the news was the oil for foods program, i was aware of this program 3 years ago, and i laughed when i heard about it, cuz it was so easy to discern how nations were exploiting iraq and how they thought of this "new and improved program" well it turned out ppl weren't getting ***** in iraq in terms of food, and countries like germany and france were eatin up all the oil hah...what a world we live in...</p>

48

<p>xindianx: First off, please refrain from using derragatory terms such as "gay" in your posts - they are inappropriate and not respected in this forum. I would expect more from a person who claims to be the "captain of his debate team." As a matter of fact, I don't recall any professional debater who doesn't use proper grammar, unlike yourself. That being said, let's move on to your argument(s).</p>

<p>Your basic, over-arching "theme, per se, is that we should give URMs the chance to succeed, considering their family situation, etc. And furthermore you say that "this is the real world, face it."</p>

<p>However, this isn't the case. It seems that you are mistake about how our world works. In the real world, people don't care whether you are white, asian, african, hispanic, or arabic - all they care is that you're qualified to complete your job. They won't give you preferrential treatment, or else it'd be "racial discrimination." </p>

<p>I agree with Elbereth, in that my own parents as well came to this country and had to work hard to earn their living; and they had no preferrential treatment in this country. They earned below 10K per year when they came to this year, and now earn over 100K. Clearly, America's a place where any person succeed if they're capable.</p>

<p>However, what you're proposing is that colleges should give better treatment to candidates who are NOT capable. I'm not saying that all URMs are not qualified - I know many URMs who are bright, and haven't relied on Affirmative Action to get into schools like Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford. The fact remains that there are URMs who have a 4.0 GPA, 1500+ SAT, and great extra-curriculars; and yet, none of them depended on Affirmative Action - they were accepted on merit, not on race.</p>

<p>Now, I'll offer a short anecdote just for the sake of making my point clearer. If I had to have surgery tomorrow on my knee for example, I would expect my doctor to know what he or she's doing. I don't care if the doctor's male, female, white, asian, indian, hispanic, black, or arabic - all I care is that he or she is qualified. However, what if my doctor had gotten into college because of Affirmative Action? What if he wasn't academically qualified to operate - perhaps he wasn't used to the rigor of the college he was a student at, because that school was actually a "major reach school" for him. </p>

<p>In addition, you still haven't responded clearly to the argument that this is reverse discrimination. Do you think it's fair for asians or whites who have to struggle day and night to do well in school, only to have their seat taken at a college by a student who was less qualified? What if you applied to X University, and a less qualified student got your spot because he was a URM - how would you feel?</p>

<p>I'm guessing you wouldn't be too happy if you were rejected by your dream school, to let a URM take your spot. You can talk the talk all you want, xindianx - but you've also got to walk the walk. Let's see if you're willing to give up YOUR own spot for a URM student - I mean, afterall, you so adamantly support Affirmative Action...</p>

49

<p>hahaha...iv been on these posts for a longg time...this is a new username don't tell me what i can't and can say...and as of now i'm reviewing for my ap physics and ap bio midterm tom mornin and i don't have the patience as you do to type in complete, proper, grammatically correct sentences buddy...and i like how u are indirectly suggesting that i am not a debate captain..i dun need to prove myself to you, anywayz gettin away from this personal spat, uh i am "walking the walk" lol if u say that, clear example, i was ranked 90 when i entered this new school 2 years ago because of some exceedingly unjust actions taken by my guidance counselor in my making my sched etc, i worked the nxt 2 years and right now im ranked in the top 20, yes top 20, i did go through all that **** to get to where i am, and if i don't make it to my dream school then ill go to my second school, my third school, ill go to college though ill to you that much, my friend im not here to whine about what i school i do or dont go to, none of u shud whine either. Reverse discrimination, that is a PROBLEM IN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION WHICH IS NOT REPRESENTED BY THE WHOLE COMMUNITY, it is rare, hear me, its rare, generally speaking affirmative action works for ppl who don't have oppurtunities and were unfortunante in their childhood, yes they are getting a "boost" cuz they were misfortunate, they went through more then others did to go from point a to point b, its like why do we have weighted gpa for honors, well because ur taking an honors class, so u get a boost, same deal. And as for your medical anecdote, do you know what the hell it takes to be a doctor and to get into med school? trust me you are giving me an example which holds no water, you are taking the "qualifications" argument and extrapolating it to a unreasonable "story", the majority of students benefiting from affirmative action are qualified and do possess the potential to do extremely well, and this in turn ALSO promites diversity</p>

<p>btw this really is a ideal v reality debate (u can say all u want guys, nothings going to change when it comes to being bias for a logical rational), i'v debated it way too many times and once it gets to the point, if you want to make the changes to promote diversity and give the opportunites that minorities in unfortunate areas etc dun have, aa is necessary. im sure NO one wants to give up their spot ok, but what else can adcoms do to make the system more fair, i mean face it minorities have a harder time coping with daily issues, and the majority of minorities, low income individuals, people coming from a community that did not favor progression of the child, all are pro affirmative action, let me give that example of the private school thats near me, more minorities are now in that school and refrained from being discouranged then 10 years ago, they are surpassing the expectations of affirmative action and thats what the concept being held for colleges is.</p>

50

<p>Wow, I concur with you completely. I live in Philadelphia also and I go to Saint Basils, very pricey, which basically quenches all mine and my families' money. My brother is also in Catholic school. At my school, many girls are from more affluent neighborhoods and they have been having tutors for the sat during summer, through first semester, and some are still in classes. My family can not afford for me to have a math tutor, something I need and something my school would provide, but it would be one day during my lunch. Well, I don't have a lunch this year on the one day the tutor is here because my schedule. Forgive me for going on a tangent. However, all I wanted to say was that, I will most likely score a lot lower than the people that can afford tons of prep classes, tutors, et cetera. Moreover, there are people (as you mentioned, in west phila) who have even less than myself, (many of them minorites), so it would be hitting two birds with one stone to revise the AA and make it more affective.</p>

51

<p>Heres a quick passage to read:
"Affirmative action works. There are thousands of examples of situations where people of color, white women, and working class women and men of all races who were previously excluded from jobs or educational opportunities, or were denied opportunities once admitted, have gained access through affirmative action. When these policies received executive branch and judicial support, vast numbers of people of color, white women and men have gained access they would not otherwise have had. These gains have led to very real changes. Affirmative action programs have not eliminated racism, nor have they always been implemented without problems. However, there would be no struggle to roll back the gains achieved if affirmative action policies were ineffective."
"Affirmative action programs have been effective in many areas of public life because they opened up opportunities for people who would not otherwise have them, including white women and men. Attacks on affirmative action are part of a systematic attempt to roll back progress in ending discrimination and to curtail a broad social commitment to justice and equality. Attacking affirmative action is self-destructive for all of us except the rich."
"Affirmative action programs can only ensure that everyone has a fair chance at what is available. They cannot direct us to the social policies necessary so people do not have to compete for scarce resources in the first place. The larger question to ask is why are there not enough decent paying, challenging and safe jobs for everyone? Why are there not enough seats in the universities for everyone who wants an education? Expanding opportunity for people of color means expanding not only their access to existing jobs, education and housing (affirmative action), but also removing the obstacles that cause these resources to be limited (social justice)."</p>

52

<p>"...don't tell me what I can and can't say..."</p>

<p>Using homophobic terms isn't something we can debate about, xindianx. If you're homophobic, there's a direct contradiction between your opposition to homosexuality and your support of other races through A/A.</p>

<p>Your response to my question about your giving up a seat at your first choice college to a URM student was that you'll go to some college anyway. That is my point. These URM students will get a good education at any college, and at a college where they are an academic fit. Putting URMs in colleges where they aren't qualifed puts them at a higher risk of not graduating. In fact, a recent study showed that URMs graduate at lower rates in 6-years then their non-URM colleagues; and this study included the A/A colleges, UMichigan and Berkeley; I've got empirical evidence to back my argument.</p>

<p>Oh, and by the way, it does matter how you write and if your grammar is proper, because frankly, I didn't understand 25% of what you wrote. And just so you don't think I'm unqualified, this comes from a Varsity debater, who goes to the #1 debate school in the nation.</p>