Gallup: Americans Rate Public Schools the Worst Place to Educate Children

Parent Cafe
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<p>But they are responsible for not addressing the schools’ crime rates. And those of us living in regions in which the only non-criminal public school student bodies are limited to $1+M-dollar-home neighborhoods do know what we’re talking about. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>It is nothing less than massive negligence, caused by misguided policies of placating, indulging, excusing, and even --through omission-- befriending behavior which is legally and socially unacceptable outside of public school walls. When school and district administrations choose to remain impotent, anarchy reigns. As a parent, that is not my idea of “diversity,” unless the clause being modified is “of standards of behavior.” No thanks. I chose to make enormous sacrifices to avoid that encounter with nausea and have zero apologies for that.</p>

<p>(frazzled, not addressing you in particular, except for the first part. :))</p>

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<p>"My daughter attended an inner city public school that was ranked in the top ten in the state, and in the top 320’s of schools in the country by USNews.</p>

<p>It’s a true public school, not a charter or one that uses exams for admission. "</p>

<p>Yes, but that school has two distinct populations-one of kids from the actual inner city, who are primarily low-income and minority, and the other of mostly caucasians in the top-drawer gifted program. Sure, the school can offer a huge number of AP classes as a result of having a cohort of high-acheivers, and some kids from the “regular” classes filter in, but it’s no secret-never has been, that the actual inner city kids aren’t the ones represented in those stellar acheivement stats. </p>

<p>I’m not denegrating the KIDS mind you, the district has a pretty bad reputation, and well-deserved, for serving low-income kids and minorities. Having said that, my two D’s attended some of the “bad” schools in the “bad” part of town and did ok. We have many friends who send their kids to these schools. Some have had pretty positive experiences but others have had to fight hard for their minority children to get the educations they deserve. </p>

<p>My older D is white and saw up close and personal how her minority friends were treated by teachers who’d give her the benefit of the doubt. My younger one is biracial and had one teacher never push her to do her best, just kind of let her coast along and another tell her at every opportunity how some thing or other wasn’t measuring up. It took years to undo that damage-to a kid who’s Mensa material.</p>

<p>This whole argument is not possible. Perceptions color everything. The comment about different educations right in the same school are dead on. It’s also true that a kid can get a good education in a “bad” school. But it’s ALSO true that money from a PTA can buy a better education. There are prejudices and/or misunderstandings that get in the way too. There are teachers who are excellent if their class is homogenous and well-fed, well-prepared coming to school and pretty terrible if they have a diverse class in terms of income level and ethnicity. It goes on and on. There simply is no blanket “public education”. There are many, many factors that come into play.</p>

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<p>One of its (possible) problems?</p>

<p>From public, home-school, charter, private and college (public), I have been through several types of educational systems. I have been to 8 differing schools - a variety of those 5 types, some excellent, some abysmal. What I have noticed is a common problem: the accountability for low test scores, educational problems and differing graduation rates (by No Child is Left Behind) is left at the classroom - and goes little further. Although the funding for the institution can be cut down and the rankings of the institution deteriorated, there is little or no follow up beyond this. The quality of teachers, textbooks, parental involvement and management largely stays the same, with little change. It is the Hawthorne effect - when inspectors or supervisors enter the classroom for its evaluation, the teachers tell their students to act differently, show a differing curriculum, and change their behavior. The result is some teachers and the classroom’s curriculum gets a higher rating than it should. Parents, further, sometimes are deterred from being involved from partly fear that they may complain about the curriculum or the school’s structure. They may call for better teachers and reading material, which would force the school to fire teachers, pay for more books, and have more supervision - which they may not want to do, either due to their low funding or simply because they do not want to change the norm. Problems - educational and behavioral - get overlooked because they feel these problems are out of their hands - “e.g., it’s the low funding, it’s the parents, it’s the students, it’s the geographic/socioeconomic area.” It’s diffusion of responsibility. This goes both ways, some parents feel it is the institution’s obligation alone for educational accountability, or the public uses the same words of diffusion of responsibility as the institution. There is not enough follow up and inner improvement.</p>

<p>A possible solution?</p>

<p>The solution is to encourage reform, parental involvement, and follow ups. The responsibility of educational success, e.g., should not feel out of the school’s hands, if that is the case. Parents should be able to visit their children on campus and sit in on classes, and be encouraged to do so (some places, actually, although it may sound strange, do not allow this or highly discourage it today). There should be an openness to allowing parents to read the textbooks and for public review. All curriculum should be out in the open and planned ahead of time (and the outline given, if not done already, the first day of class). Perhaps in the future there can be a general, publicized teacher review (similar to ratemyprofessors.com for college) for K-12. The teachers which do not perform get booted and have better teachers replace them. This combats the Hawthorne effect. The students (and their parents) get to choose what teachers they prefer. Students, further, are encouraged to write reviews (although this can be biased, so perhaps it should mainly be the involved parents who do so). Those who have the longest wait-lists get to remain, while the others leave. Today, there is practically NO choice for specific teachers, books, or curriculum in the K-12 system, it is chosen for them (although some highly achieving AP students who get on the track straight away in middle school have some choice of better teachers, partly because they become well known by the counseling staff who choose the classes for them, and the teachers who teach AP sometimes are required to have higher qualifications). There are too many hoops, and not enough choice in K-12. There should be more accountability. The freedom of choice, as seen in public college to choose the preferred curriculum, teachers, and structures could be beneficial to the K-12 system if used wisely and as an example, as is the recognition that improvement can be achieved by the public, the schools, and the parents, if all done in tandem.</p>

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<p>Well, there are other reasons, too. Like the length and high cost of the education and training it takes to get there, which in many (most?) cases leaves the beginning practitioner saddled with a mountain of debt. Like the long hours in many medical specialties, which correlates with a high level of job dissatisfaction. One recent survey found that 43% of medical doctors said they would switch to another career if they could (3% said they already had, 16% said they definitely would, and 26% said they “probably would”). Another survey found 70% of medical doctors said they would not advise their children to become doctors, a huge reversal from earlier decades when the children of doctors were among the most likely to become doctors. Another big factor in all this is that many doctors feel they have a lot less autonomy in their medical practices now than in past generations, or in some cases than in the earlier parts of their own careers. A larger percentage of them work for someone else than in the past, usually an organization of some kind, and even those who are nominally independent practitioners find their hands are often tied by what Medicare or the insurance company will pay for in a given situation, so their work is less like that of an autonomous professional exercising her own professional judgment, and more that of a highly trained technician figuring out which rules apply, and exercising independent judgment only within the bounds of what the rules will allow (which is often precious little). So there’s not the same level of job satisfaction as in past generations. Then, too, there’s the declining prestige of the profession, which is still positive, with a 2004 Harris survey finding 52% of Americans list medical doctors among the “most prestigious” occupations, but that’s down from 61% in 1977.</p>

<p>But it’s an extremely valuable profession, and those who are so inclined should be all means pursue it; we’re going to need you, and there certainly will be good, high-paying jobs. Just don’t expect it to be a bed of roses.</p>

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<p>By me, the k-8 system in the public schools absolutely DESTROYS that of the system in the catholic school. There’s no advanced math track in the catholic school; hell, they barely prepare them for Algebra I. The band program is abysmal. Because they can’t get out of algebra I in high school, they get stuck in Earth science freshman year, while others can skip to Biology. Don’t know about English, but from what I hear it’s not that great. Really, public school > catholic in my town.
As for high school? Well, there are a few catholic schools to choose from, and I can’t speak for any of their quality. I do know that there’s one that has FAR fewer AP classes than my high school, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to quality of education.
Also, the reason I keep speaking of Catholic schools is because that’s the only kind of “non-public” school in our area. Not a lot of variety.</p>

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<p>Private school was a waste of my parents’ money.</p>

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<p>We have St Paul’s and Phillips Exeter in my area and they’re fairly well-known and I think that they could provide any student with what they need.</p>

<p>We also have the Derryfield School in the area - it’s run like a college campus. It probably offers more than the typical public high-school though nowhere near what you’d get at St Paul’s and Phillips Exeter. There are a few towns in the area that send their students to Derryfield as it seems preferable (either financially or academically) to building additional schools.</p>

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<p>“I think that they could provide any student with what they need.”</p>

<p>I think they’d have a lot of trouble serving a student with below-average intelligence and ambition. The best schools in the world aren’t best for everyone.</p>

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<p>I was addressing the comments by FastNeutrino on how bad private schools are in terms of the lack of advanced courses.</p>

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<p>but that school has two distinct populations-one of kids from the actual inner city, who are primarily low-income and minority, and the other of mostly caucasians in the top-drawer gifted program</p>

<p>I agree that is the perception in Seattle- although Seattle doesn’t even have an " inner city" actually, compared to Chicago or LA.</p>

<p>But my D didn’t attend the AP middle school, she actually was a special education student in elementary & middle school, and when she went to high school, she was able to be exited from her IEP because of the support from the teachers. </p>

<p>When she began high school she tested into two grades behind in math ( despite never getting below a B) and was enrolled in a program that was designed to help her catch up to grade level so that she was able to take chemistry by jr yr. ( & physics as a senior).</p>

<p>Her high school has lots of programs designed to help challenged students prepare for after high school, most are designed for low income minority students, but they did make accomodations for those who didn’t qualify for FRL, and who were white.</p>

<p>I didn’t originally want her to attend such a large & challenging school( although her grandmother was an alum) , but she made friends in many groups that overlapped, with sport teams often being the common denominator. </p>

<p>Some of her friends went off to schools often mentioned on CC, and some of her friends took courses at the community college before transferring. D wasn’t the only student who was taking a remedial class in high school at the same time she was taking AP courses.</p>

<p>The support was there for any student who wanted to challenge themselves- although even courses that were perceived as “not college track” like environmental science, were rigorous as I found when I assisted on field trips. ( I mostly helped in classes my D wasn’t in. ) I was pleased that I found the students to be much more engaged than I expected. :o</p>

<p>I would change a few things however.
I would encourage the parents who reinforced the idea that AP classes were for whites/Asians, to support their kids who want to participate in them. Too often at school board meetings I would hear parents say the" AP courses were too much work & that they were a waste of time because their child wasn’t going to continue their education". :frowning:
Then those same kids would come into the counseling office, junior or senior year to get help from volunteers to find colleges to attend ( & to try & improve their transcript).</p>

<p>I also would take down the parents in the PTA down a few pegs. The clique of parents who run the high school PTA are the same ones that ran it in middle school and they are a machine that is productive as long as you follow their lead and don’t try and insert any new ideas. This can be pretty discouraging to some people ( although since I was the parent chair at her previous school, I found it to be a relief to be able to step back a bit)</p>

<p>However all guardians/ parents need to feel welcome, and encouraged to participate wherever they can. Kids might complain, but when they see their parents involved in the school, whether it’s helping on a field trip, attending a meeting or a student performance, they are much more attentive afterwards.</p>

<p>The teachers are already ( many of them) giving 110% & not just to the kids who are already on an academic track, we need to educate the parents so they don’t see their child’s education as 100% the responsibilty of the district, and give them the skills to advocate for them.</p>

<p>Someone mentioned this on another thread. It seems to be very promising.

[Right</a> Question Institute - A Catalyst for Microdemocracy](<a href=“http://rightquestion.org/]Right”>http://rightquestion.org/)</p>

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<p>I am amused by defenders of public schools who cite the education that they received their own school as one of the best in their area and conclude that our system of public schools are excellent. In my experience, these districts are typically more exclusive than all but the most expensive private schools. The least expensive home in these districts in Ohio and Kentucky is around $200k and has annual taxes of $20k or more. When I ask these self-righteous public school advocates if they would willingly attend any neighboring districts, they reluctantly cite one or two that might be acceptable and half a dozen or more that they comment on derisively.</p>

<p>My point is that good public schools are essentially private schools. Either they screen families through real estate prices and taxes or they are urban districts that pull the best and brightest from throughout the district. In either case, these students bring with them parents who are involved and offer their support to the self-selected talented students.</p>

<p>Public schools fail a majority of students in our nation as a whole. These students come from families that have no choice about which school to attend. Private schools have a distinct advantage in that they are not required to deal with many of these issues. However, somehow we need to offer hope to families where children cannot move to a better district.</p>

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<p>rmldad: You’re right about working to improve schools that are struggling. I agree that private schools don’t have to deal with problems that public schools face all the time. However, I’m one of those who is very happy with our public school system and who does NOT come from a privileged area. We live in a very economically diverse district and have many students in our schools whose parents are very poor and/or do not speak English.</p>

<p>The difference is that in NC, most of the school systems (or at least the ones of which I’m aware) are county systems, and diversity is a big goal. Some of that involves busing for economic diversity (because there was a fairly recent court case that prohibited busing for racial diversity). Therefore, there aren’t little enclave school systems, where there are some areas where everyone wants to live and other areas that people shun. Parents know that wherever they live in the county, their children will have decent schools. Consequently, there are not that many private schools.</p>

<p>What has changed in the past twenty years is that a lot of people who have moved to this area from up north aren’t used to this diversity system (read integration) and want their children to go to a “neighborhood” school. If we change to a proximity-based system, though (there really aren’t many actual “neighborhood” schools), there will be more of the good/bad schools problem. It’s a huge challenge that a number of the districts in NC have been facing as people have moved into the state. Note: This is less of a concern with rural counties, where housing patterns generally are economically diverse as compared with more urban/suburban counties.</p>

<p>You have hit on the problem that affects many school systems – the “haves” and “have nots” – and that is something that must be addressed. Consolidation of smaller “good” and “bad” systems into larger systems is an approach that can work, but it’s one that often faces huge opposition from many well-heeled parents who, frankly, don’t want their “good” schools “brought down” (in their opinion) by not-so-well-off students.</p>

<p>I’m very pleased with my children’s education. They have stellar teachers and plenty of challenging courses. They also are forming relationships with students who are poor and struggle with academics – something that they wouldn’t likely get in a private school.</p>

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<p>rmdad= your point may be correct but I think your numbers are off. A $200,000 house in Ohio or Kentucky is not paying $20k in property tax.</p>

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<p>""My daughter attended an inner city public school that was ranked in the top ten in the state, and in the top 320’s of schools in the country by USNews.</p>

<p>It’s a true public school, not a charter or one that uses exams for admission. "</p>

<p>Yes, but that school has two distinct populations-one of kids from the actual inner city, who are primarily low-income and minority, and the other of mostly caucasians in the top-drawer gifted program. Sure, the school can offer a huge number of AP classes as a result of having a cohort of high-acheivers, and some kids from the “regular” classes filter in, but it’s no secret-never has been, that the actual inner city kids aren’t the ones represented in those stellar acheivement stats."</p>

<p>This is an interesting point. My wife is the vice principal in an inner city elementary school. The principal was force to resign because of some “issues”. They hired temporarily a retired principal until a replacement could be found. This principal retired 2 years earlier from a magnet school in the same city. The difference between those two schools is unbelievable. First in the magnet school she was able to get anything and everything that she wanted immediately. The school population was made up of not only students from the same city but also from surrounding towns. In my wife’s school, this principal has learned how fortunate she was and now has a better understanding of the difficulties of a school that virtually every student is from the “projects” and is 93% free breakfast and lunch even in the summertime. Schools can be in the same inner city but have vastly different resources and educational results depending on the location within that city.</p>

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<p>tom1944 - my numbers are correct, but they are worded improperly. $200k is the minimum sale price while $20k is the median property tax in district (based on a median value of roughly $400k).</p>

<p>Many districts in Ohio have For Sale signs sprout in the yards of the graduating seniors each spring since the parents are no longer willing to pay high taxes once the kids are out of the schools.</p>

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<p>Well if the property tax on a $400,000 home in Ohio is 20k that makes NJ seem cheap.</p>

<p>My brothers home in a very good/great school system in NJ is worth anywhere from $600-700k and his taxes are around $15k.</p>

<p>My home is worth about $325-350k and the taxes are about 7k.</p>

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<p>And in the vast majority of instances, they bring with them parents who are very, very educated. As I’ve said repeatedly, public education in this country was never intended as the exclusive responsibility of teachers. Public schools were based on a model which assumed an educated vocabulary at home – not necessarily high-level education, but a complete education. (i.e., high school diploma, which diploma meant something because the graduates were actually literate. :eek:) However, now there’s a greater gap than ever before in our public education history, with the premium public schools populated by premium-education parents, and “all other” populated by families with highly compromised literacy. Anyone who doesn’t understand this is really quite sheltered when it comes to public school differences today.</p>

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<p>…and from families that are often partly literate, and/or ELL without resources to address those language barriers. Not only is the instruction in school in English, so are the announcements to parents regarding their involvement, regarding resources, etc.</p>

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<p>Their greatest “distinct advantage” is that the culture of the home resembles the culture of the school. (An assumption of academics as essential and desirable.) There’s nothing (or very little) to “fight” in the surrounding neighborhood. It is not cool to be stupid or uneducated. Now, some inner city charter chains realized this long ago, and began promoting a culture of academics within the schools, in great contrast to the surrounding neighborhoods. The problem is that it does set up a tension, and sometimes the school loses the battle, due to the pull of off-campus peer influences. It is also why the best-performing among those students are often aggressively recruited/encouraged to attend East Coast boarding schools where there is no opportunity to mingle in the 'hood, and where the culture is far more single-minded about what is and is not cool. This option is often chosen for students who are potentially Elite College material.</p>

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<p>High taxes in Ohio!! and I thought Fairfield and Westchester counties had high property taxes.</p>

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<p>I suspect that one problem is that, consistent with John Rawls’ influential “A Theory of Justice” in which he argued that the most just society is that which maximizes the welfare of those at the bottom, public schools have become less a place to offer opportunities for social mobility to members of the lower middle and middle middle classes (consistent with utilitarianism), and more of a place to prevent the poor and the working class children from a life of crime, absolute despair, or destitution.</p>

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<p>Property taxes in Ohio aren’t expensive everywhere, although perhaps they are in the Cincinnati suburbs? My sister-in-law pays roughly the same in property taxes on her $800K dollar home outside of Columbus as I do for my post-war Cape Cod on an acre of land in NYS’s mid-Hudson Valley.</p>