<p>Interesting link;</p>
<p>Good</a> schools should be a civil right | ajc.com</p>
<p>I disagree with the principal that education should be a civil right. That's what got public education into its current state.</p>
<p>What do parochial, charter and private schools have in common? Troublemakers can be expelled.</p>
<p>These institutions "work" because they can "cut the cancer out".</p>
<p>(How is that for a deliberately antagonistic OP:)?)</p>
<p>What, public schools don’t kick kids out of school?
Of course they do. Or they have them sit in the office or worse keep them all in the classroom( if they even show up at school), even if the teacher isnt able to control them.</p>
<p>In our experience, private/alternative schools have more resources for student engagement so kids don’t become trouble makers in the first place, or they work with families to find a more appropriate placement & welcome the student back when they are ready.</p>
<p>The restrictions on public schools for kicking kids out are HUGE and the kids then must be educated somewhere so many Districts have reciprocal agreements with other Districts and they trade off their kids. Until expulsion, many Districts have started Alternative campuses for recalcitrant students. VERY difficult to kick a kid out. And when kicked out of the private schools, they must go to public. And the wonderful judges who decide the kids have to be in school never think about their impact on the other kids…</p>
<p>
Leaving aside your word choice and the unsavory lack of compassion for troubled kids it displays, yes, this is true–and it’s why all the tub-thumping about the inherent superiority of those various forms of non-public schools is nonsense. The difference between public schools and other schools is that public schools have to take everybody–even if “everybody” creates disciplinary problems and distractions, even if “everybody” brings down test scores. It’s a lot easier to make a great dish if you get to pick your ingredients.</p>
<p>To answer your question: whether education is inherently a right or not is a question of political philosophy and how far your notion of rights extends to social goods as well as liberties. In practical terms, our society has declared it a right through 12th grade (in most places) and an optional, saleable commodity after that.</p>
<p>and it’s why all the tub-thumping about the inherent superiority of those various forms of non-public schools is nonsense… It’s a lot easier to make a great dish if you get to pick your ingredients.</p>
<p>Uhhh…you just contradicted yourself…</p>
<p>First you say that it’s nonsense that non-publics are superior. But, then you say that it’s easier to make a great dish (have superior schools) if you get to pick the ingredients (the students).</p>
<p>So, therefore, non-publics are often/usually better because they get to pick their students.</p>
<p>Nope, no contradiction. The point is that because schools differ so widely in the “ingredients” they are given to work with, you can’t judge their quality by the results they achieve, any more than you can judge the skill of a group of jockeys by the outcome of a race they run in which some of them start at the gate, some of them 50 yards ahead, and some 50 yards behind.</p>
<p>In a world of increasingly scarce resources and “international competition”, do we have the wealth, as a nation, to coddle the recalcitrant?</p>
<p>It really isn’t whether we want to or not. Can we afford it? Particularily when the system is poisoned for the bulk of teachable/trainable kids by the relatively few troublemakers.</p>
<p>Most countries determine the appropriate educational track for people at an early age. Bomb your boards, off the “academic track”. Perhaps not American but very efficient. “Little Billy with dyslexia and an IQ of 80 wants to be a neurosurgeon. If we can get him to stop hitting the other students and dealing drugs, that may be possible”. THAT is US educational philosophy.</p>
<p>Many of our social institutions are coasting on past glories. Affluence is declining as the population is forced to parity with less developed nations. The local taxes that used to be paid by large corporations to fund education are now collected from individuals and
given as incentives to corporations to locate in specific communities.</p>
<p>Many states are in financial trouble. Here we are reducing educational expenditures as are so many other states.</p>
<p>Can we afford to be America any more? Not if we waste a disproportionate share of resources on kids who are unwilling to contribute. </p>
<p>I have no hard numbers but IMO if we cut lose the worst 2 to 3% of the student population, the rest would be just fine.</p>
<p>It is not a right/privilege, it is a product that one can afford to have just like everything else. Is it right or privilege to own a house? Is it right or privilege to have 19 kids? Is it right or privilege to have a good health care or it is OK to have health care which is not available to most? We can go on forever with questions like these that have no answers. Opinions on this thread (including mine) will not make any difference anyway. If gov. decided that it is a right, then they will take more $$ in form of taxes from all of us, nothing we can do about it. Then gov. give this $$ (or product) to certain group that gov. decided deserves to have it. It is called communism, I know that nobody likes it here, but communism is when people have what they want (of course it claims that all are created equal, but it assumes that some are created more equal than others).</p>
<p>BigG – If you want us to track kids, maybe you should ask corporate America why all the jobs for non-college graduates have been sent to other countries.</p>
<p>I think it’s s civil right but not on an individual bases. It’s SOCIETY’S right to have an educated population which can sustain itself and, in our case to the extreme IMHO, help sustain others. Just look at countries which have not considered educating it’s population to be one of their rights. How did that work out?</p>
<p>MiamiDAP: Your argument boils down to saying that any government that has the power to decide how much to exact in taxes, and from whom, and for what purposes, is communist. If so, then virtually every government in the history of civilization has been communist, including the government of the US throughout its history.</p>
<p>At Big G, the majority of the time the issue lies with the parents of those kids. The kids are a symptom of the problem and not usually the problem. Just ask any teacher or volunteer who works with disadvantaged youth and you will get a pretty clear idea why those kids are struggling in bad schools. Thus perpetuating the cycle.</p>
<p>The difference between public schools and other schools is that public schools have to take everybody–even if “everybody” creates disciplinary problems and distractions, even if “everybody” brings down test scores. It’s a lot easier to make a great dish if you get to pick your ingredients.</p>
<p>All you have to do is count the #s of public school students in 8th grade and compare them to the graduating numbers to see that even with teaching to the test, and getting credit for seat time that our graduation rates are poor.</p>
<p>
[Class</a> Struggle - Must-read new report on high school dropouts](<a href=“http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2010/06/must-read_new_report_on_high_s.html]Class”>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2010/06/must-read_new_report_on_high_s.html)</p>
<p>I agree with denise515, we as a society require an educated & involved populace- but you can lead a horse to water…</p>
<p>dbwes,</p>
<p>Perhaps because of the dearth of machinists, electricians, and engineers and the glut of lawyers and liberal arts majors?</p>
<p>Wages are an issue but even now are secondary in some industries. </p>
<p>Which countries are going to have automated factories with fewer but more valuable workers? Hint: Self repairing machines are still some decades away.</p>
<p>The issue is not what we want to do or what we consider morally correct. </p>
<p>The issue is whether we will do the things we have to do to survive as a society.</p>
<p>Hint: How is the military able to train young people to perform complex tasks with intricate dangerous machinery where one error can mean death? It isn’t because they coddle the little dears.</p>
<p>Emerald, I think the sad truth is that most of those dropouts are lost well before they hit high school. Many while still in elementary school.</p>
<p>Emerald, I think the sad truth is that most of those dropouts are lost well before they hit high school. Many while still in elementary school.</p>
<p>Possibly, although my youngest did much better in high school than she did in elementary.</p>
<p>I dropped out of high school, and was disappointed with the curriculum and the teaching in just about every class I had.
A few classes in jr high and high school were the exception and it wasn’t because of the bells and whistles but because of the teachers passion for the subject.</p>
<p>I think schools of education try to breed passion out of potential educators and for the ones who make it through , the administration of the district will finish the job.</p>
<p>Cut the troublemakers soon enough, you might save most of the others.</p>
<p>Allow a culture of disrespect for learning and academic achievement to fester, lose them all.</p>
<p>Teachers become disengaged because of the lack of disciplinary support from administration, who in turn are disempowered by legal restraints.</p>
<p>If they don’t value it, don’t give it to them.</p>
<p>Again, BigG, start with the parents.</p>
<p>I would wager that at least half of the students labeled as " troublemakers" would succeed/ even excel if placed in smaller classrooms, had curriculum that wasn’t " one size fits all", but experiential and hands on, had support and accurate identification for learning challenges and were encouraged to participate in their own learning.</p>
<p>My younger daughter attended an inner city high school, many of the students are plenty bright, but have challenges that make studying at home difficult.</p>
<p>If the choice is to save face by acting out like you don’t care or repeatedly trying to get help to no avail, when it is obvious that the supports the school offers aren’t enough, what do you think a 15 yr old is going to do?</p>
<p>My friend told a story of her daughter’s fourth grade BTS night. There were THREE parents in her classroom who attended. The same night we went to our 9th grade/hgh school son’s BTS and in every classroom there were at least 3/4 of the seats filled with parents.</p>
<p>Our kids attend schools in the SAME school district. The difference is my son attends the highest ranked school in the district (likewise are it’s feeder schools) while her daughter attends one of the lowest ranked elementary schools in the district. Her school feeds into some of the lowest ranked schools in the district.</p>
<p>We live about two miles apart from each other. </p>
<p>Bottom line. Parent involvement matters.</p>