<p>Does anyone have any opinion about whether high schools shoudl deny access to Honors level courses to students???</p>
<p>As Bill Clinton might say, it depends on what you mean by "deny" :)</p>
<p>IMO, students should not be arbitrarily kept from higher level courses, but a lower achieving student B-/C should be counseled against it (unless their low grade was due to sheer boredom and lack of challenge). Inappropriate placement is unfair to the student and the class.</p>
<p>"Inapproprite placement is unfair to the student and the class." I completely agree. But that said, there should be a way to allow a very keen turned-around student to give it a try. Kids grow up in the most amazing ways and in their own time.</p>
<p>My S' school has generally open enrollment. There are some prerequisites for certain classes, but there isn't a firm grade requirement. Basically, teachers and parents can waive the grade pre-requisite -- but not the pre-requisite. So if AP Chemistry has a pre-requisite of one year of HS chemistry, end of story. But if AP English has a pre-requisite of an "A" in the student's prior English course, the parents and teachers can waive it. Generally, teachers usually grant waivers on request. I think they feel that so long as the student knows what they're getting into, more power to them.</p>
<p>Funny story: S' school has been seeking to increase AP participation. So the week before scheduling for next year, we got the following letters on the same day:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Form letter stating that S' current English teacher has recommended that he take College Prep English, NOT AP English next year. S has a B in the current class, which drives me crazy. Scored in the 95% Verbal on the PSAT as a Sophomore, but simply hates this class and doesn't put the time in to pick up the required class participation points. </p></li>
<li><p>Form letter from the principal congratulating S on his PSAT scores and urging him to consider scheduling AP classes next year, specifically AP English. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>The letter with the recommendation from his current teacher really bugged him. He immediately talked to the AP teacher, got her waiver and an advance copy of her summer reading list and has polished off 6 of the 10 books. At the expense of NOT reading the Oprah Winfrey Book Club selection that he's supposed to be reading for his current class. Sigh.</p>
<p>At Ds school you need a certain grade to move on into ap or honors, that said, you can get in with reommendations from teachers, counselors etc. Desire and follow through can a student into the class. But there are some hoops. Rightfully so. If a student isn't trying or able in a regular class, than honors could be a real struggle. But is student really shows a passion and desire, exceptions are made.</p>
<p>Iderochi,
My S is in 8th grade. He has been in the SEED (talented) program there for 2 years. He has had all A's or A-'s since kindergarten. He also received an award for one of top 2 students on his team coming out of 6th grade. There are 3 teams as 370 kids in his grade. However, 2nd quarter of this yr. he got 4 B+'s. As my son points out, the diff. between a B+ and an A- can be like 89.4 to 89.5 depending on which rounds up!! However, our school considers only 2 things for honors level transition to freshman yr. you get 60 points towards an overall point value; but if you have an A and a B, you get 45 points. whoever came up with that has long since left the school but they keep doing it. then, he failed the 40 minute science placement test. he got a 56. No wonder he failed, they don't teach here. they do ridiculous projects instead. if he had had 2 A's, he would have enough pts. regardless of the failure. he has already qualified for 2 honors classes in english and geometry. history is not yet determined as he had not yet written writing sample for history. come on, are they looking at the whole child? i spoke with guid. head at high school, but he told me as far as he was concerned this converation was ended. i met with high school principal, but he said regardless of the fact that he got all A's and A-'s 3rd quarter, he would have to wait for 4th quarter grades and to see if he scored Advanced Proficient on 8th grade GEPA. Where is the credit for being in a SEED Science class right now? Also, don't expect him to do well this quarter as he had a PowerPt. to do on Wash DC trip.which will count as a major grade in every class. He waited til last minute and then couldn't open his file at home from a USB flash disk. So, he missed a few pictures which will be 2 pts off for each so i predict a B or C. Math component involves measuring distance with a string and ruler for 4 or 5 places in DC. That is a significant assessment of Alg I this quarter don't you think My son hates the middle school this year. He hates his teachers. He is miserable. His Alg I teacher gives tests that take 3 days to do. What the heck kind of assessment is that? He gives no homework!!!!!!!! He talks to his lady friends in the hallway for 10-15 minutes, films his class for his master's degree, and flirts with the 8th grade girls in the class after that. And you don't think my husband and I aren't livid!!!! I am serious about having my son take Honors Bio and/or HOnors World History online from an online high school this summer if he doesn't place by summer time. Other wise, i will have him take study halls and take the 2 courses online during the yr. We are moving out of town to a top 10 high school in NJ as soon as my daughter graduates next yr. She did not score advanced proficient on her 8th grade GEPA. Yet, she went on to earn an 800 on new SAT in March (Crit Reading) (2,240 overall0. My son is probably brighter than her in that she works her butt off. He gets A's and does zero work. God, I hate this town.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>At my D's school, students must have teacher recommendation and prerequsites to take either honors or AP courses. If a child is not recommended for an honors course by the teacher, but the parents think the child is capable, there is an override form that is available. In signing it, the parents and student agree that:
1. The student must remain in the requested class for the entire semester.
2. The student may possibly return to the recommended class at the beginning of the next semester, but only if space is available.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Inapproprite placement is unfair to the student and the class.
[/quote]
absolutely</p>
<p>Splash, that sounds like a remarkably well-reasoned system. The opportunities are available, the student is informed about the fact that it will take hard work, the parents are involved, and there is a firm written commitment. Can your school district adopt my S' school?</p>
<p>Mel, you wrote
[quote]
No wonder he failed, they don't teach here. they do ridiculous projects instead
[/quote]
One of the reason S doesn't like his English class is because that instead of just being tested on how well they read and critically analyze a book, he gets graded on how well his "reading circle" puts on skits, etc. I know, I know -- one of the hardest parts of teaching is making the subject interesting to the widest group of students, and some students would completely turn off on a straightforward "read, discuss, write, test" format. But when the numerous projects ultimately pile up more points than the actual tests and essays, it's time to take a step back.</p>
<p>I feel for you....what state are you in? Is this SEED program part of a larger school? </p>
<p>A couple of things- get son organized...he is frustrated right now, but its all he's got to work with, so he should do really well to show he deserves to be in AP. </p>
<p>My D went to an elementary school where the way they taught was often to say, just read the chapter. So, I ended up doing some homeschooling to supplement school programs. </p>
<p>I would recommend he take the classes in highschool even if they aren't honors or AP. Getting into the highschool study habit is good. Getting into having to do things on someone else's schedule will teach son some organizational skills he will probably need in new school. Don't give him study halls. He probably won't use them effectively. He can take the online class at the same time. </p>
<p>Good Luck</p>
<p>My children's school also has a grade requirement to get into AP and Honors classes. Plus, for most AP and honors classes you also have to get written recommendations from several teachers (usually your English teacher and the teacher who taught you this year in the subject). And, some teachers even make students fill out an application, turn in a list of their expected extracurricular activities for the next year, write an essay, and do other "trial" stuff before they are finally accepted. </p>
<p>The teachers who teach AP/Honors classes feel that they put a lot of extra time and effort into these classes, they want to be sure that the students in the class are there to do the work, not just to get a tickmark for college applications. Also, once you're in, you are expected to stay in: no dropping after the first two weeks or you are banned from taking AP/honors classes in the future. The message to students is very clear: these are NOT going to be easy classes, you WILL be expected to work at a certain level, and we WONT listen to complaints. </p>
<p>However, Like at Splash's school, students who don't get accepted can, and sometimes do, sign a special contract to get admitted. The contract states that the student understands that they have not met the pre-requirements for the class, that they might struggle with the work, and that, while they can not drop the class after the first two weeks, the teacher still has the power to kick them out if they are not passing with a C or better, if they are causing problems in class, or if they are not doing the required assignments. It's all quite scary (my daughter had to sign a contract to get into Honors English this year after her 10th grade English teacher refused to recommend her because of her less-than-perfect spelling!) </p>
<p>Quite draconion, some might say, but the end result is that students really do seem to take these classes seriously and 90% of the students get 4's or 5's on AP tests (the other 10% generally get 3's). By the way, the school also has a policy that students are only allowed to take TWO APs a year. They can sign the same contract to take more AP classes, however. We very seldom have kids take more than 5 AP classes, however, and the average is 3. The school send 98% on to 4 year colleges, including the most selective schools in the country.</p>
<p>Carolyn, you don't per chance happen to live in NJ? We have to find a better high school to move to in one year. There are lots of good ones. However, I have learned a valuable lesson in that I will make sure before I buy a house that there are no gatekeepers into Honors/AP! I would be happy to sign a contract for my son to take Freshman Honors Biology and Honors World History.</p>
<p>One of the reasons that my kids ended up in private schools is the gatekeeping policy that the public highschool had. Not only is there a gpa, teachers rec, requirement but also some test that they give as a screening. Also it is on a space available basis. Despite all of this, many kids "jump the line" or get in because of parents who make a big stink and somehow game the system. I just did not have the fight in me to do this. My oldest son who was the one most affected since we moved to the area while he was in highschool took nearly all AP courses his junior and senior years at a catholic highschool instead of taking the public option. He scored well on the AP tests and did all right in the courses. He would not have been eliglible of a fraction of those courses in the public schools we considered even before we bought our house. When we moved here, I did not even bother to visit the public high school because I knew that there were gatekeeping policies here as well, and opted to go private immediately. This one, too, as well as my D has taken many AP tests. I believe that any kid who wants to take AP classes should be given the opportunity to do so. If he cannot hack it, then he can move down after the first quarter to a lower track. He can be moved down if he is a true distraction to the class. It can be surprising who benefits the most from advanced courses.</p>
<p>For AP's our school requires an B avg in the prerequiste honors class or an A in a regular class. The student and parent must also sign a contract saying they know the work involved (they are given a course outline) and agree to read certain books in the summer (9 for AP euro) or do math problems in AP stats or calc. The students are told they cannot drop the class after they've enrolled although I doubt they enforce that. APUSH is being added this coming fall for sophomores but all other AP's are for Juniors and Seniors only.</p>
<p>I think the school should have some kind of criteria or policy regarding student enrollment in AP/Honors courses, and this should allow for students who are sufficiently motivated to go for it! I will tell this true story...DS's 10th grade English teacher did not recommend him for Honors 11th grade English because she said he was not well enough behaved (no joke...this is what she told me). He had an A in her class despite his "naughty" behavior. DS spoke to his useless guidance counselor who told him HE would need to speak to the English teacher because guidance could NOT place him in Honors English without that recommendation. SO...DS did speak to the teacher who still said NO. I called the GC...and got no where. In the meantime the third quarter grades came out and DS got an A+. I called the Assistant principal who overrode everyone else's decisions and placed the kid in Honors 11 English. By the way...DS also took AP English, and placed out of TWO English Literature courses at Boston University with his AP mark. AND his verbal SAT was 730. I can tell you that the school's policy of requiring a teacher recommendation did NOT work in my child's favor. He was a model student in his honors and AP English courses. Let's face it...there was no one to be naughty with!!</p>
<p>Mel, I know that it is frustrating for your son to be locked out of the courses that you want for him, knowing his ability - but it seems to me that your post is full of excuses you or your son are making for his performance -- rather than dealing with the underlying fact that your son is not working to his potential.
[quote]
then, he failed the 40 minute science placement test. he got a 56. No wonder he failed, they don't teach here. they do ridiculous projects instead.
[/quote]
Other kids passed, right? Very bright and motivated kids tend to pick up and retain information far beyond what is "taught", often through independent reading and study.
[quote]
if he had had 2 A's, he would have enough pts. regardless of the failure.
[/quote]
But he didn't. If my daughter scored a mere 200 points higher on the SAT's, she would be able to consider applying to many more prestigious colleges... that doesn't make it the college's fault that she didn't score as well as their other applicants. I'm not going to be able to call up the adcom at Yale and argue that issue --we have to just accept that some colleges are out of reach unless she can raise her scores.
[quote]
he has already qualified for 2 honors classes in english and geometry.
[/quote]
GREAT! Then he will have at least 2 honors classes next year. That's a good start.
[quote]
Where is the credit for being in a SEED Science class right now?
[/quote]
Obviously the SEED class didn't translate into being able to pass a basic science placement test. It is common for schools to rely on test results to make decisions. For example - taking an AP class doesn't win college credit - the student also has to score well on the exam.
[quote]
Also, don't expect him to do well this quarter as he had a PowerPt. to do on Wash DC trip.which will count as a major grade in every class. He waited til last minute and then couldn't open his file at home from a USB flash disk.
[/quote]
Yeah, my son waited until the last minute to do a college paper and then his computer crashed and he lost all the work...darn computers, it's all their fault. With better computers no one would have to plan at all.</p>
<p>I'm not trying to attack you, Mel... but what I see is a long litany of excuses, and no indication that your son is taking reponsibility for his own learning, or that you are focusing attention on bolstering his study habits and sense of responsibility. You will find that 9th grade is pretty tough for kids like this -- he will be in for a very rude awakening in some of his classes. The teachers in high school usually are far less likely to cut a break to a kid who waits until the last minute to start assignments - and they won't hesitated to give C's, D's & F's for work that is not satisfactory. </p>
<p>I thnk it is a mistake for you to be trying to talk teachers and school officials into changing their policy, instead of helping your son learn from the experience. It's better that your son learns now that his actions have consequences, and that he will need to work harder to achieve his goals -- because the more delayed that lesson, the worse the potential consequences. </p>
<p>I don't know your son, but from your post I get the sense that he is an extremely bright kid who easily qualified for the gifted program in middle school and was able to coast along without much effort along the way. He has never learned to apply himself and study. This is a common problem for many bright kids. Your focus now really should be on those study skills. The good thing is that colleges like to see a pattern of improvement over the 4 years of high school, so if your son takes regular biology and history next year, but moves into honors classes his sophomore year and does well for the remaining years of high school -- he should be fine.</p>
<p>But honestly - if he doesn't address those study habits, his transcript will look better if he stays in non-honors classes where he can slack of and still get A's, than in honors classes where he ends up with C's and D's because he doesn't put in the effort. I know that is not what you want for him - but arguing against the standards the school has set for its honors classes isn't going to help. Your goal should be to help your son meet those standards - not just to get around them.</p>
<p>My school (public, NJ) doesn't have "gatekeeping" for honors classes, and anyone can sign up for them. At the beginning of the year, my friend who is a junior wanted to take Honors Physics, but she couldn't get into any of the classes because too many people were taking it. Meanwhile, my Honors Physics class started with 30 people, but almost a third of them dropped in the first three weeks. Many of them moved down into a regular physics class offered the same period, until that class just had too many people. My friend, who got an A in Chemistry Honors last year, is now in Honors Physics and getting an A in that as well. But it wasn't fair that she was kept out of the class at first because of other students who overestimated themselves.</p>
<p>AP Science classes usually don't have the same problem, because they are all offered as second year courses, so students know what they are getting into (Anyone can take Physics II AP as long as he or she passed Physics I or Physics I Honors.)</p>
<p>Overall, the system worked for me, since I had low C's in non-honors English II, but now I'm getting an A in AP English Language. Go figure.</p>
<p>There are a lot of reasons in high school why kids don't always get the classes they want. My daughter can't fit trigonometry into her schedule next year, and the AP US history conflicted with another AP she wanted, so she had to give up on taking that as well. That's just the way things end up some time.</p>
<p>Mel, I live in California and actually pay hefty tuition so my kids can attend a school with AP/Honors gatekeeping policies.:)</p>
<p>While I was a bit upset when my oldest started at this school and didn't qualify, based on testing, for the honors math and science track, I now see things differently. My kids both have learned that if they want to get ahead (i.e., get into the honors and AP classes next year), they have to be willing to do the work this year. There have been disappointments for both of them along the way with this system, but there has only been one occaision where I signed the contract to get one of them into an Honors class. The other times, I knew that they didn't get in because (1) they didn't perform at the level required to get in (for whatever reason) or (2) their teachers had a valid reason for thinking they were not ready to handle the particular class. </p>
<p>I hate to say it, and I hope you won't be offended, but I agree with Calmom's suggestion that you might want to look at this as a learning experience for your son: review the reasons he didn't get in with him (you have listed them above) and explain that if he wants to do well in high school he has to push himself a little harder than he has been. That will be just as true at the new high school --- maybe even MORE true if he will be competing with even better compared and motivated kids as it sounds like he will if it is a "top 10" school in the state. He will have to push himself harder to stand out at the top in a top school, regardless of their gatekeeper policy towards AP and honors classes. That's a valuable lesson for a bright boy to learn early on, in my opinion (Believe me, I have a bright boy of my own who doesn't always put the extra effort in he is capable of!)</p>
<p>In the meantime, you might think about some other options that would get him back on the AP track for the subjects he didn't get into. Perhaps sitting down with the guidance counselor again and instead of asking if the policy can be waved seeing if the two of you can come up with some sort of strategy such as getting tutoring or taking the basic class over the summer in science would help. </p>
<p>If all else fails, don't worry too much about this --- APs and honors in every single class is not necessary to get into a good college. For example, the AVERAGE number of APs taken at Stanford is only 5 --- not 10, not 15. That means that there are kids who get into Stanford with 3 and 4 APs which it sounds like your son will easily have, even with the gatekeeping for science.</p>
<p>Mel, I just re-read my post above and hope it doesn't come across as harsh. I certainly understand how you feel and have been there too.</p>