general questions about chicago

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
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<p>A few things:</p>

<p>Uchicagoalum: I couldn't make your link work.</p>

<p>menloparkmom: Sorry your son felt that way. Mine doesn't, and his GPA is a 3.7+ while taking four classes every quarter. The Millennials are a trial for we faculty members. So many of them feel that just showing up and doing work deserves an A. No doubt, many of them feel any lower grade is "punitive."</p>

<p>All: I'm guessing that 3.25 is still the media/mean GPA at UChicago. As I recall, that's the cutoff for Dean's List, and I believe I've heard that 1/2 of those at UChicago are on the Dean's List. </p>

<p>I don't know the average/mean GPA at other schools.</p>

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<p>" So many of them feel that just showing up and doing work deserves an A."
That is NOT the case with my son. An as you made it in reference to my post, I think your remark was mean spirited and unnecessary.</p>

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<p>I can't speak for Tarhunt, but I'm bewildered as to why your son feels like he is getting "punitive" grades and is "devastated" by them unless he expects himself to be getting very high grades and grades are extremely important to him.</p>

<p>I can only imagine two scenarios in which a student is devastated by a punitive grade. If the professor is failing students who show a continued commitment to the class and are doing the work, I would find that situation pretty nasty. If I couldn't resolve the disparity by conferencing with my professor and/or my adviser, I'd be really upset. Then again, I know of no instances in which a professor has failed somebody who has been serious about doing the work. A C, sure, that's happened. But failing is more of a story.</p>

<p>If your son is upset because he got a grade he's never seen before despite working pretty hard for it, he can join the club. Again, even though he may think his grades are punitive, I doubt his professors think of them the same way. Perhaps your son could turn the grade into more of a learning experience by conferencing with the professor and figuring out ways in which to improve?</p>

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<p>menloparkmom:</p>

<p>I'm sorry. No offense or mean-spiritedness was intended.</p>

<p>In order to understand my comment, it might be useful to know that I'm on the faculty of a public flagship university, and I'm teaching my first undergrad class in three years this year. I cannot begin to describe my dismay with this class. I have never seen such a sense of entitlement. Instead of wanting to improve and learn how to do things better, how to think better, how to write better, and what have you, they want As. They want As whether they have earned them or not.</p>

<p>It might also be useful to know that I'm just one of many colleagues around the country who are equally dismayed. Certainly, there are Millennials who are not like this, but the overall picture is disturbing and, in some ways, even frightening. </p>

<p>I don't know your son, of course, but I can't imagine why he would think any professor (and I am one) would give "punitive" grades. Practically all the pressures, in fact, are pushing us in the other direction. I now give As for work that would have earned a C+ at a different time in a different school. And if I give a B, it usually costs me many hours of precious time talking to angry, aggressive, weepy, and/or depressed undergrads AND THEIR PARENTS, if you can believe that!</p>

<p>If your son didn't get the grades he wanted, perhaps it's because he didn't earn them?</p>

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<p>"I doubt his professors think of them the same way."
That is the reason I agreed with this statement-
"My reflection on the matter leads me to believe such a grading system is archaic and hence unjust. While a lot of C’s at Chicago are perhaps deserved on an objective level, grades today are meant mostly to discern relative merit not inherent quality. A major resulting problem with the U of C grading system is that it is not comparable to the schools it competes with."</p>

<p>I never said hs was failing.
And once again, TH, you make an offensive assumption about my son, with out any knowledge of him or his circumstances to back it up.
l"If your son didn't get the grades he wanted, perhaps it's because he didn't earn them?"</p>

<p>That is part of the point. No matter how hard he tries, he is being graded lower than he thinks is fair, and lower than the same classes as his HS classmates are taking. They are equally capable and are at comparable Universities. And as he is not and has never been a complainer, I'm going to listen to his complaint and wonder whether Chicago's system of grading is perhaps out of date and out of step with the expectations of top students in this day and age. I don't think Chicago can afford to maintain it's Ivory Tower " we're different from everyone else" system of grading if they want to attract more students, which seems to be the new admissions directors intent. That is why I agreed with uchicagoalum's post. Agree with or not, I think he has addressed a problem that Chicago needs to wake up to, IMO,</p>

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<p>And just in case you think he doesn't have the "smarts" to do well at Chicago, his SAT's were 2350, all his SAT II's were above 750, he was an AP National Scholar, NM Finalist, is an accomplished classical pianist, and did graduate level research in Seismology with a scientist at USGS while in HS. And he was accepted at Chicago both as a Freshman and as a transfer student. So if he isn't the type of student that Chicago hopes to attract, and nuture, then who is?</p>

<pre><code>And re:
</code></pre>

<p>"I cannot begin to describe my dismay with this class. I have never seen such a sense of entitlement. Instead of wanting to improve and learn how to do things better, how to think better, how to write better, and what have you, they want As. They want As whether they have earned them or not.</p>

<p>Tarhunt, he was surrounded by just such students at the U he matriculated at, which is why he made the decision, on his first day as a Freshman, to reapply to Chicago.</p>

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<p>"My son, who is very smart, was accepted at many top colleges,, including 2 Ivy's, Chicago, Wash U, etc., transfered to Chicago this year, and is devastated by the "punitive"[ his words] grades he has received. He has made the decision to return to the college he transferred from, and I don't blame him. We had such high hopes that he would love Chicago, because it seemed all along as the perfect "fit", but for him, Chicago truly is the "school where fun goes to die.""</p>

<p>I don't think anyone has doubted that your son is very bright. Chicago isn't for everyone - The school has a unique way of constructing its curriculum (and grading system for that matter), which doesn't work for every student. It is good to keep in mind that a student should try find a school that's best for him or her, and not try to mold a school to find his or her needs. If the way Chicago runs things doesn't work for your son, it is best that he transfer in order to get the best possible academic experience. Grades are not really the operative thing here -- What is important is to get a really good education, and finding a good education is contingent on the school that is best for the student in question.</p>

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<p>He is transfering. See my post at the top of the page.^^^^^
He has made the decision to return to the college he transferred from, and I don't blame him.</p>

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<p>But let me just ask -- Why does he want to transfer? Does he dislike the school, or the grades he's receiving?</p>

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<p>I was at UChicago back in the 80's and the grading was extremely tough back then, perhaps more so then now. In my first year Greek Thought and Lit class (taught by the amazing Profs. Ian and Janelle Mueller) only two students received "A" grades (actually, one "A" and one "A-"). </p>

<p>The amount and quality of work they demanded of us was extraordinary and most of us were left dazed by the difference between high school and college. I don't remember any of us complaining too much though, since the analytical methods we were learning were obviously something we all wanted to master. By the third quarter, we were all doing much better, but there was an extremely severe learning curve to overcome.</p>

<p>That being said, all major graduate schools and programs are aware of UChicago's difficulty and make adjustments accordingly.</p>

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<p>He does not feel the effort he has made is reflected "fairly" in the grades he has earned. Maybe he has very tough professors, compared to most, I don't know. He has had no time for "fun", because he is working so hard to earn good grades, not A's, but at least B's, but he now feels the amount of work required at Chicago is just not worth it to him. He wants to have time for activities outside the classroom, and he can't see how this will be possible. So he is going back to the U where he has a full tuition scholarship, where he can get as good an education as at Chicago, and have also a life.</p>

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<p>^ Professional schools and employers also realize the differences in grading.</p>

<p>The grading at the U of C may be tougher than the grading at other schools, but I don't think that the grading is off at all. This quarter I got a B on a paper in one of my classes. I had not gotten a B on a paper yet, despite having taken hum, sosc, and civ first year, so I was disappointed by the grade. But then I read the comments, and they were exactly right. I deserved a B on that paper. If I were at a college that gave me an A- on the same paper, I would have just taken the grade and not thought about it again. Instead I realized a major weakness in my paper, so throughout the rest of the course I've been thinking about how to make my second (our last) paper better. I haven't been reading as closely as I could; I didn't take this paper as seriously as I should have; I didn't spend enough hours throwing ideas around in my head before writing a thesis. My next paper will be better; I will have learned more about writing, have thought more critically, and have spent more time on the subject of the class than I would have if I had gotten an A- instead of a B. In the same way, when I get an A- on a paper here, I can feel good about it. When I get a flat A, I can feel really proud. Sometimes it's difficult to look at friends at other schools who are getting better grades for less work--and got worse grades than you in high school. But that isn't what really matters. The grading at the U of C is right for the school. It encourages students to study harder, read closer, and think harder, and it ensures that students' work doesn't settle. Students are always kept reaching to make their work better, so when they get those high grades the students get a real sense of success and accomplishment. It wouldn't be the U of C if a mediocre paper got a B instead of a C+, or if a paper missing something important got an A- instead of a B, or if it wasn't only the truly great papers that got As. </p>

<p>Having said that, I would encourage your son to not make a hasty decision. Does he dislike more about the school than just the grades? Why do the grades upset him so much? Does he feel that his work is better than professors think it is? Or does he just feel like his level of work deserves higher grades than U of C professors feel it does? It's also possible that he got stuck with three or four harsh graders as professors. Though I think most papers would fall within one grade step of each other across professors, the presentation of the grading method, the comments given on papers, and the amount of support given can be quite different teacher to teacher.</p>

<p>X-posted with Menloparkmom.

[quote]
He does not feel the effort he has made is reflected "fairly" in the grades he has earned.

[/quote]
Grading is not based on effort, besides through attendance, class participation (which is only part effort--the other part is what you say), and showing interest. Grades on papers should reflect the objective quality of the paper--nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

[quote]
He has had no time for "fun", because he is working so hard to earn good grades, not A's, but at least B's, but he now feels the amount of work required at Chicago is just not worth it to him.

[/quote]
Your son should have time for fun and enough study time to get Bs. For next quarter (I'm assuming he's staying here all year?), he should try to construct a different kind of schedule. Maybe take three courses instead of four, take a mix of humanities and quantitative courses instead of all reading intensive classes or all number based courses, maybe take all classes on T/Th to leave full days free, or maybe take all morning classes to leave time in the afternoon to study instead of late at night, when many people are less productive. He should look at his study skills and time management skills. Does he study while talking on AIM? Should he work in the library instead of in his room? Should he set time limits for himself for his work? Should he skim some readings in order to spend more time with others? Does he take advantage of office hours, tutors, and TAs? I don't know any students who don't have time for fun. Something must be going on with his particular course schedule, professors, or study techniques. He should try to switch things around next quarter and see how it goes.</p>

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<p>corranged is so right on this one. I don't feel like I have that much more to contribute.</p>

<p>Menloparkmom--</p>

<p>I assumed your son wasn't failing. I put that example out there as a possible situation in which grades and grading curves are literally overwhelming.</p>

<p>I really don't like comparing numbers with numbers, but for the sake of an argument about fit, academic ambition and the like, I'll bring mine own into play.</p>

<p>I had far lower SAT scores than your son (2070 high score) and I didn't break 690 on any SAT II's. I was deeply involved in one or two EC's in high school (nothing unusual) and spent my summers doing pretty normal high-schoolish things. I took the most challenging classes at my high school that I could and did solidly well in them, solidly enough to put me in line for considering Ivies and the like. My school didn't rank, but if it did, I would probably be ranked 10-15% of a highly competitive school. </p>

<p>I've always loved doing work, and I haven't always been rewarded for the work that I've done (I actually wrote on two such experiences for my Chicago application). That's probably what makes me a great candidate for a school like Chicago, and it's probably also what may frustrate a lot of potential students.</p>

<p>I haven't peered over my peers' shoulders (ha! punny!) to evaluate what kind of work they are doing and what grades they are getting for it. It's really of negative interest to me. I'd rather discuss the sexual orientation of fruit flies, or the history of the ketchup bottle, or godforsaken anything besides "what grades are you getting?"</p>

<p>It's a source of perverse pride for me if your son feels like the U of C as a whole grades more harshly than our peer institutions. I've actually always assumed that the school was on a similar grading plane with others.</p>

<p>I'm sorry your son feels like he has to forego a social life to do well academically-- certainly, my friends and I don't feel that way. At the same time, though, my friends and I are not overly ambitious extracurricularly-- for me, I'm involved with school, a few clubs here and there, and taking my Fridays and Saturdays off to watch stupid movies and go into the city. Is your son involved with more than a few time-eaters (a job, an internship, and a time-intensive class?). I could easily see my free time getting eaten up by other commitments, but I have made social life and sleep a priority for myself. Does your son feel uncomfortable giving more weight to academics and less to extracurriculars and other opportunities?</p>

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<p>menloparkmom:</p>

<p>I really don't understand why you're taking offense. What you have told us is that he didn't find his classes or classmates challenging enough at a different school, so he decided to seek more challenge. When he got that challenge, he decided that he challenge was somehow "unfair." At least some of his U Chicago classmates are getting As, clearly. But he is not. Why? Did it occur to him that the reason he's not getting As is because he is not performing as well as the students around him? Has he given thought to the fact that he might just learn how to do better work if getting an A is not as easy at Chicago as it is at his former school? Does it occur to him that it might not be his professors who are at fault, but the quality of his work? Not that his work is bad, of course, but that it doesn't, as yet, approach the level of excellence required to get an A?</p>

<p>As for the idea that Chicago, or Swarthmore, or any other school should begin to give out As for a lower standard of work because other universities do so, I wonder if we shouldn't apply this standard in all walks of life. If any business feels its standards for products or services, and its standards for employees who turn out those products and services, are too high, perhaps it would be best to lower those standards?</p>

<p>As for your son, I do not know him and I do not know you, but your words make it appear (and perhaps I've misunderstood you) that you think he deserves As because he is smart. Personally, I believe As belong to those who turn out superior work. Being smart is useful in this, but it is not the only factor.</p>

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<p>Tarhunt, I took offense only at this-
"If your son didn't get the grades he wanted, perhaps it's because he didn't earn them?" Sorry for being overly sensitive.
As I said before, he is working very hard, as he always has, to earn good grades, which ARE important to him. I think he would be happy with B's, but he says he thinks he will only have a C in Chem. Should grades be as important? Good question. His plans are to go to graduate school. And he has read everywhere that a high GPA is critical to getting into top graduate programs, which is what he hopes to do. As for the other questions asked by Corranged, which are also good questions- "He should look at his study skills and time management skills. Does he study while talking on AIM? Should he work in the library instead of in his room? Should he set time limits for himself for his work? Should he skim some readings in order to spend more time with others? Does he take advantage of office hours, tutors, and TAs? "- I don't have the answers because I don't know. No, I don't think he "deserves" A's. I have no idea what his classes are like or what is expected. Nor do I know what the quality of his work this year is like. Maybe the contrast between the U he was at and Chicago is so great that he is not doing as well at Chicago because he got used to lower standards or expectations that what Chicago expects and requires. Maybe he just got really tough professors. I wish I knew. He has decided that Chicago and he are not a good match , which is a real surprise and disappointment to both him and myself, because the counselors at his HS thought Chicago was the right fit for him, and because, if he were to die tomorrow, [ God forbid] the words "He loved to learn" would be an appropriate thing to carve on his tombstone. But despite this, he says does not think he made a mistake transfering there. He wouldn't have found out what Chicago is like if he hadn't come.</p>

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<p>My own concern is that your son is indeed right for Chicago, but is not giving himself the time or the space to explore the school and make adjustments. I say this because of all the people I know (and I know a lot), the number of people I could put in the "severely unhappy/transferred out" category is two or three. Both of the people I can think of had severe emotional problems and in their cases, transferring did not resolve their underlying emotional issues.</p>

<p>Of course, your son is free to make his own decisions, but I'm wondering how he can help himself try to adjust. I know very little about the chemistry classes here, other than they can tend to make people a little bit zooey (isn't that true everywhere?), but my housemates work on chemistry, math, and physics together all the time and have a lot of fun with each other that way. Sometimes, I'll hear a lot of noise emanating from somebody's room and I'll go see what's up, only to see a lot of people curled up with blankets, mugs of tea, and whatnot, chatting and doing chemistry homework together. On weeknights, the house lounge TV is on all the time, and we watch "America's Next Top Model," "Gossip Girl," etc. with our laptops and homework. (I mention this not to advocate this way of getting something done, but to underscore that doing work can be social at times). Whenever I work this way, I get the buzz of being with other people, a little bit of a treat that I might have given myself anyway, plus a little bit of homework done.</p>

<p>This collaborative and socially-based way of working on things is not unique to my house or even the dorm system-- my friends will work together on projects at somebody's apartment, etc. I got an e-mail through one of my class listhost from a student, who invited everybody in the class to go to the Med (the beloved greasy spoon in Hyde Park) together one night to discuss topics for our papers. For the final papers in two of my classes, both of my profs have sectioned small groups of the class off so that we can conference with each other about our papers and discuss our ideas. This strikes me as not only an amazing way to learn, but an amazing way to get to know people more closely.</p>

<p>At the same time, I know what it feels like to make a wrong decision, though, and I know how much time can be spent recoiling from that wrong decision. (I've made a few wrong decisions that have particularly cost me). I'm not necessarily advocating for your son to stay at Chicago if he thinks it's clearly not the right place for him, but I am trying to indicate that I think your son's negative experience is highly unusual, and from what it sounds like from your description of him, it could very well be a great place for him. In theory and not in practice?</p>

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<p>My daughter made it through high school, at two very good schools, without ever getting a grade as low as B+ on a paper written in English. She made it through her first quarter at Chicago without ever getting a grade higher than that. Not for lack of effort. It was very frustrating at the time, but ultimately a learning experience.</p>

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<p>MPM, I can definitely see where you may have felt offended by others' comments here. I've found that it's often difficult to convey a son's situation because others sometimes assume a typical "mother's bias". </p>

<p>The only reason I want to post is to assert that MPM's son is certainly not the self-entitled type (I know him, not amazingly well, but he's my roommate). His courseload's extremely difficult because of the high level math and science he's taking -- it's a common theme among the kids in my dorm that the core class he's taking right now is much, much more difficult than they ever anticipated it would be. He may be doing an above-average job in all of his his classes, but until a curve is implemented, he won't know it. I realize that it's somewhat awkward for me to read this post as well as contribute to it, but I think that the most recent posts are getting somewhat closer to what may be the reality of the situation, that he's absolutely qualified and most certainly putting forth the effort, and that maybe it's just a matter of this particular quarter/the adjustment timeframe that's getting him down.</p>

<p>REGARDLESS, if MPM's son isn't comfortable here, there's nothing wrong with him choosing to transfer because it has nothing to do with his ability to "cut it" here. He certainly is cutting it.</p>

<p>MPM, I'm sorry if my posting here was a little strange -- just wanted everyone to realize that he's a great student, period, and not just through your eyes.</p>

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<p>^^ I think another [small] factor in his unhappiness is where he lives, which is very isolated, and the small size of his "house" [40 students, all transfers]. Obviously he had no choice, but if he had been able to be in a dorm close to campus, as he was last year, mixed in with current Chicago students, I do think it might have made a difference. But what are the chances of that next year? Nil, since continuing students have the option of staying in the houses where they are, and many students move off campus when they are upperclassmen because of the housing shortage. As far as housing goes, Freshman come first, then current students, and transfers are last man on the totem pole, and as a result are housed together, isolated far from campus and from other students. Also, because it Stony is all apts, they tend to be isolated from other house mates[ more so than those living in dorms at least]. It is unfortunate that Chicago can't find/ reserve housing for new transfer students much closer to the heart of campus or mixed in with other current students. Chicago is as new an experience for transfers as it is for Freshman.
"In theory and not in practice?" I think this is the case. Might it have been different if he had lived in a different house? I think he would have had an easier time finding students outside of those in his classes. There are other factors, not relating to fellow students, that I have not mentioned that are also a reason for his decison to return to his prior U. [ $ is not one of them]. But he might have stuck it out if some factors were not as they are.
He does feel he made the wrong choice, but it will help him appreciate more the great professors at his old U[ his statement]. He really hasn't made a "wrong" decision before, but we supported his decision to transfer, and now that has has realised Chicago is not the right place for him, and that he made his decision to go there without doing enough research about Chicago, what it offered, and specifically what it didn't have for him, he has learned a lot from the experience.</p>

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<p>rainmanoutofsnow,
THANK YOU so much for your kind words!!!!! I can''t tell you how much I appreciate it. Please don't tell my son what I posted here. He would be mortified!</p>