Germans make good engineers?

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You must be dense.</p>

<p>1) I say the US pays engineers here in other first world economies (ie: UK/Australia/Canada). I viewed this information as common knowledge (seriously, I thought everyone knew this).
2) Someone brings up India. [I then clearly state I’m referring to 1st world countries only.]
3) They ask for data comparing 1st world salaries.
4) I present the data.
5) We are still talking about how engineers in the US are underpaid as compared to India (in terms of the ratio between median income to engineer income). This comparison is stupid because engineers in India are paid more relative to their counterparts in Germany/Japan…which were the countries that the US was being compared to initially. Jesus.</p>

<p>No, you must be dense… to quote the original poster:</p>

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<p>That answer to which is that Germany (and India and China and…) place more prestige on careers in engineering than the population of the United States does.</p>

<p>If someone asks you what you do here in the US, if you say engineer, they generally reply “Oh you must be really smart.” If you reply “I work as an investment banker” they reply “Wow! That must be exciting! You must make a killing!”</p>

<p>Now, onto your string of arguments. Point number 1 is just plain fact and no one is refuting it. Yes, a direct comparison between the salaries of engineers here and in other industrialized nations will show that usually US engineers get paid more. However, the whole point of comparing relative salaries is to show how engineers are paid compared to other professions in different economies. The fact is, in Germany, while engineers are paid less, they are paid more in comparison to the rest of the country’s job force than engineers in the US. The difference is that the average salary in the US is higher. That doesn’t tell us anything about the relative value of an engineer in the US versus another country unless you normalize it to the regional norm.</p>

<p>Look at it this way, the average engineer in California gets paid a lot more than the average engineer in Cincinnati. Does this mean that all the engineers working in California are worth more or are better or have more prestigious jobs than those that work in Cincinnati? Not at all. It is merely a function of the cost of living of the area. If you compared the salaries to the average salary of the region (throwing out careers like movie star that would greatly skew things), you would find that their relative salaries are the same. The same thing goes for comparing US engineers to foreign engineers.</p>

<p>Now how does this relate to the original question? Well, in areas where engineers are paid better in relation to other careers, there will tend to be more students gravitating towards engineering, and the most apt students are less likely to take their engineering degrees and apply them to jobs that DO pay better since there are fewer of those. That is why the talk of relative salaries is being used.</p>

<p>A higher absolute salary tells us nothing. You need to know the local averages and trends to really draw conclusions.</p>

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Source please.</p>

<p>Until this is refuted of confirmed I’m not sure there is a whole lot else to talk about. I know a few German engineers (auto industry) and their salaries seem to be slightly discounted to the US wage (40K Euro). That led me to conclude that the ratio between engineering salary and average salary would be similar to the US. Geographically, these guys worked in Munich.</p>

<p>I believe within Anglo countries it’s similar. In fact, I think it’s <em>way</em> worse to be an engineer within Canada than the US.</p>

<p>Because they are ethnically superior (ie. master race)</p>

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<p>Hail! My Aryan brother!</p>

<p>Oh wait… I am not a racist… whoops, heat of the moment.</p>

<p>3 pages before a joke… not bad. </p>

<p>I was ready for one on the first page! :)</p>

<p>Jokes aside, I think germans do have somewhat of an ethnic advantage. Look at all the stuff that they’ve done technology-wise, musically, etc.</p>

<p>That would be construed as racism by most people in the current left wing establishment.</p>

<p>I say Japanese people have ethnic advantage because they invented ramen noodles!! :D</p>

<p>I dunno, if we give Germans an ethnic advantage, what do we give Italians? There are plenty of Roman bridges and roads that big rigs drive on today. Then fast forward today’s Italian cars. I mean sure you don’t drive a Ferrari to the grocery store, but OH GOD IT’S SO SEXY</p>

<p>Don’t think I’m being sarcastic; I’m astoundingly racist and quite open about it. It’s just that I’m equally astoundingly racist towards all peoples, including my own :-D</p>

<p>Italians are good at killing people (colliseum and mafia)
English are good at being greedy
Africans are good at basketball</p>

<p>cmon you cant seriously say all people are created equal.</p>

<p>^Eh, don’t overrate the colosseum, it was kind of like the Roman equivalent of “pro” wrestling. But they were otherwise good at killing people, including themselves. It seems like every historically-significant Roman who committed suicide went out of his way to do it in the most painful, gory, melodramatic way possible.</p>

<p>The English are good at being horrible gastronomists. That goes for all of Germanic europe.</p>

<p>Africans are good at running. How else do you get away from lions :o?</p>

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<p>I work with several people for whom English is not their native language. I’ve found that their ability to communicate and comprehend written and verbal English can vary quite widely depending upon circumstances. One thing that I’ve noticed is that for highly nuanced information, where methods such as analogy must be used to provide examples or clarification, some non-native English speakers have a lot of trouble.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, the relevant data seem to be in German, and my German is terrible. Nevertheless, the figures indicate:</p>

<p>*German electrical engineers in 2006-2007 earned 38k-39k euro to start, which is equivalent to ~$53-55k according to today’s exchange rates. {Note, EE was picked because it is the largest engineering subdiscipline.}</p>

<p>*US electrical engineers in 2007 earned ~$55k to start</p>

<p>*The average overall per-capita income for all workers in 2008 is about $47k in the United States and $35k or $42k in Germany, adjusted or unadjusted for PPP respectively. </p>

<p>*Hence, it is quite clear that German engineers are indeed being paid a higher premium relative to the average German than are US engineers to the average American. A German engineer making $53k to start is earning a 1.26 unadjusted PPP ratio (53/42) or 1.5 adjusted PPP ratio (53/35) relative to the typical German income, compared to the US engineer who makes only a 1.17 ratio (55/47).</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.sueddeutsche.de/jobkarriere/4/300002/uebersicht/10/index.html?action=detail&detail=gehalt&id=74&searchAction=abisz&dynt=Ingenieur%2Fin%20Elektrotechnik]Ingenieur/in”>http://www.sueddeutsche.de/jobkarriere/4/300002/uebersicht/10/index.html?action=detail&detail=gehalt&id=74&searchAction=abisz&dynt=Ingenieur%2Fin%20Elektrotechnik]Ingenieur/in</a> Elektrotechnik - Geh</p>

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<p>I don’t see how that’s relevant. The original thread was not talking about Anglo countries, for nobody is claiming that engineering is socially prestigious within the UK or Australia. {For example, in the UK - as in the US - the best students strongly prefer to be investment bankers rather than engineers.} The question on the table is regarding Germany or other countries where engineering is considered to be socially prestigious.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that the US is a rich country and so every American will tend to make more than their foreign counterpart. A guy flipping burgers in the US will probably make more than a guy flipping burgers in another country. The question is what are the relative payoffs of various career paths within any particular country. As I’ve always said, the average US engineer doesn’t earn that much of an income boost compared to the average American. I wish they did, but they do not.</p>

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Dude, I’ve already acknowledged that, as the next few sentences in post #37 make abundantly clear. My main problem was you quoting Indian wages, which is just dumb and a completely misnomer - and you have since posted German data, which makes your point.</p>

<p>Oh well, I’m fine with my current career path.</p>

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<p>Exactly how is doing so ‘dumb’ and a ‘complete misnomer’? What you said was “engineers in the US make more than they do in other countries.”, and not once before post #18 did you specify that you were restricting yourself to only talking about German wages. Hence, a discussion of Indian salaries is entirely appropriate. </p>

<p>Therefore it is your statements that are dumb and complete misnomers. Next time if you want to restrict the scope of your comments, you should state what those restrictions are.</p>

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Because, Indians engineers (against their countrymen) make more money than Germans. In a thread talking about German engineers being good, wouldn’t this kind of nullify your argument? Or are you going to make it a discussion point that Indian (but only in India) engineers are the best in the world? Or perhaps Chinese engineers are the best in the world?</p>

<p>I’m saying the massive salary gap that you initially quoted is mostly due to India being a third world country.</p>

<p>Deciding to get some data on the matter of German vs. US prestige as judged by relative mean (I didn’t find median salaries, which would be better) salaries of Engineers vs. rest of population for.</p>

<p>What I found:</p>

<p>Germany:
Gross engineer monthly income: 4196 euros
Gross annual income (overall): 30207 euros
Adjusted engineer monthly income: 3397 euros
Adjusted annual income (overall): 20843 euros</p>

<p>US:
Gross engineer monthly income: $6196
Gross annual income (overall): $42028
Adjusted engineer monthly income: $4710
Adjusted annual income (overall): $31410</p>

<p>The ratio for Germany (monthly eng/annual overall): .139/.163 (gross/net)
The ratio for US (monthly eng/annual overall): .147/.150 (gross/net)</p>

<p>As you can see, there is no discernible difference between the German vs. US prestige as judged by relative mean salaries. However, this could be a result of the increasing globalization of jobs making relative prestige as judged by income pointless.</p>

<p>I must say, I disagreed with Mr. Payne’s argument, but the data seems in his favor</p>

<p>Source:
[U.S&lt;/a&gt;. Average Salary Income - Job Comparison](<a href=“http://www.worldsalaries.org/usa.shtml]U.S”>Average Salary in United States for 2024)
[Germany</a> Average Salary Income - Job Comparison](<a href=“http://www.worldsalaries.org/germany.shtml]Germany”>Average Salary in Germany for 2024)</p>

<p>Incomes aside. Europeans typically have greater respect for Engineers than the US. In Europe, Engineering has long been considered a “noble” discipline, whereas in the US, it is generally considered a blue collar profession. </p>

<p>Furthermore, American consumers are more interested in value for money and customer service. Those two concepts drive product development. In Europe, consumers are more interested in product quality and will pay extra for what they perceive is better quality.</p>

<p>Those sorts of differences in paradigm help explain why some of Europe’s most talented individuals opt for a career in Engineering whereas in the US, most top talent would prefer careers in the Services (IBanking, Consulting) or Law or Medicine.</p>