<p>That’s actually a myth about CUNY. </p>
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<p>I doubt it’s a myth if I keep hearing/reading about it from folks with firsthand knowledge from having taught or attended as students during the '70s. In fact, within the last month, was reading a FB conversation by an acquaintance who graduated CCNY in the mid-70’s who recalled being overwhelmed as a math tutor toward the mid-end of his college career as more and more un/underprepared students were being admitted. The cases which stood out for him were some students who couldn’t add-subtract fractions. </p>
<p>I don’t mean to get too far off topic and violate the TOS, but this chart shows that America’s poor are better off than Germany’s poor: <a href=“The examined life”>The examined life;
<p>In sum, stats I have shown indicate that Americans are better educated, have higher median household incomes, more disposal income, lower tax rates, and their poor are better off than Germany’s. So why are some coveting Germany’s free college educations? Probably because it would be great if we who must pay for college could get it for free without affecting the other factors. </p>
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<p>This is debatable. Hartz IV reforms tie welfare payments to accepting employment, even if it’s not what you want. The level of poverty support in Germany is lower than it used to be.</p>
<p>I don’t mean to get too far off topic and violate the TOS, but this chart shows that America’s poor are better off than Germany’s poor: <a href=“The examined life”>The examined life;
<p>Can you provide the chart as the Economist is asking me to register first? </p>
<p>No I’m sorry I cannot. </p>
<p>Can you see the chart now?
<a href=“http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/full-width/images/2013/05/blogs/graphic-detail/20130601_gdc707.png”>http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/full-width/images/2013/05/blogs/graphic-detail/20130601_gdc707.png</a></p>
<p>One major issue with that chart which jumps out at me is how SES for both are determined “Based on Income or Education”. </p>
<p>This can be very misleading due to the following factors:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>American readings may be boosted higher due to the skewing effects of the much higher incomes of those at the higher end. An effect which may conceal greater income inequality.</p></li>
<li><p>Quite a few who have a university education with a bachelors or higher are in deep poverty here in the US due to lack of jobs, poor health, and other factors. I read tens of thousands of Americans with bachelors or higher are on food stamps/welfare. This factor likely misleadingly boosts the American reading for the bottom 10%. </p></li>
<li><p>Germany doesn’t have the “everyone must go to college mantra” and it isn’t necessary to be gainfully employed in many occupations…including lucrative ones which would require a bachelor’s degree or higher here in the US. Thus, German readings on those charts may be depressed because a lower proportion of their population have gone on to attending university. </p></li>
<li><p>Following up on #3, the academic barrier of entry to universities or even many universities of applied sciences/higher vocational institutes are such there isn’t likely to be the same issues regarding poverty of those holding college or higher degrees compared with the US. </p></li>
<li><p>Incomes at higher end tend to be much lower in Germany due to laws regulating executive/CEO pay whereas those regulations don’t exist in the US which also acts to depress German readings and boost US readings. </p></li>
<li><p>Educational loan debt tends to weigh down college and higher degree holders economically while boosting their level of education at first glance in the US due to high tuition costs. This factor isn’t likely to be a problem in Germany as their tuition/fees are much lower before they went back to being completely free and the much higher barriers of entry into university than in the US. </p></li>
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<p>The chart would be much more helpful if they separated out the income and education into two separate charts. </p>
<p>What jumped out at me on the chart is that the span of difference in quality of life between the rich and poor in both countries looks almost identical. </p>
<p>Maybe the problem is too many Americans are going to college.</p>
<p>43% of Americans have a bachelor’s degree or higher.
28% of Germans have a bachelor’s degree or higher.</p>
<p><a href=“Percentage of Population of Select Countries with Bachelor's Degrees or Higher, by Age | RSF”>http://www.russellsage.org/research/chartbook/percentage-population-select-countries-bachelors-degrees-or-higher-age</a></p>
<p>If we let fewer people into college, maybe we can reduce inequality.</p>
<p>Of course, moving people from the top to the middle isn’t good for those people, but hey, as long as everything is more equal, then we are better off!</p>
<p>One difference is there are decent jobs for people without a college education in Germany. And, there are not millions doing nothing. They are given jobs for benefits. Not just apartments and subsidized poverty for generations. How to fix it, I don’t know. I remember something about changing welfare as we know it, but I think we may have changed it back somewhere along the way.</p>
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<p>And some of the bachelors degrees among the 43% the Americans hold would be more equivalent to a German university of applied science/higher vocational institute diploma or lower than a German university bachelor degree. </p>
<p>New York City’s public higher education system used to be free, at least free tuition. Students had to have
strong grades to get in. </p>
<p>When I finished college, I paid less than $600 a year for tuition. That was in California, for an institution in the state college system. The UC system was more, but not a lot more. The community colleges charged $2 a semester.</p>
<p>The thing is, we could fund public higher education fully if we wanted to do so. </p>
<p>I looked back in this thread and saw someone said it’s a myth that CUNY was free.</p>
<p>It’s not. My mother went to Queens College for free. She has friends who went to CUNY schools for free. I have a colleague who went to CCNY for free. And I remember when they changed the policy.</p>
<p>We could do this if we wanted.</p>
<p>He said it was myth that the system was overwhelmed with unqualified students.</p>
<p>Cobrat, I’m sure the 28% includes the Fachhochschule (Universities of Applied Sciences) as the FH Diploma is the equivalent of a Bachelor’s degree. </p>
<p>Another fun fact. </p>
<p>Expenditures on tertiary education as a percentage of GDP (for 1995, 2000 and 2007):</p>
<p>Germany: 1.1, 1.1, 1.1
UK: 1.1, 1,0, 1.3
EU Average: NA, NA, 1.3
Canada: 2.1, 2.3, 2.6
USA: 2.3, 2.7, 3.1</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/c2/c2s4.htm#s2”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/c2/c2s4.htm#s2</a></p>
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<p>I tend to think part of what holds Germany back some is proximity to much poorer countries like France, Poland, Czech Republic, and Italy, compared to the US being next to Canada (much richer than almost any country in Europe). I don’t think it’s fair to say Germany is poorly run (if that’s your implication) based on the results alone. Just that Germany is run in a distinctly German way, a way not appropriate for the US.</p>
<p>Don’t forget that (West) Germany had to absorb East Germany, which was a FAR poorer country.</p>
<p><a href=“Why the former East Germany is lagging 24 years after the Berlin Wall came down”>http://qz.com/60481/why-the-former-east-germany-is-lagging-24-years-after-the-berlin-wall-came-down/</a></p>
<p>France shouldn’t be described as poor (as compared to the eastern euro countries, Greece, etc). France’s economy is comparable to Germany and the UK (France’s GDP per capita is a bit higher than the UK’s). </p>
<p>I would have been counting the UK as poor as well, though on PPP basis it’s slightly wealthier than France. Though yes, France isn’t as poor as Poland for instance. Though Canada and the US are closer in relative prosperity than Germany and France are. And MUCH closer than Germany and Poland or Czech Republic. If the France comparisson is objectionable than consider only Poland, Czech Republic, and Italy. </p>
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<p>After the Bologna process, yes. However, before that process, Universities of Applied Science diplomas weren’t regarded as equivalent. </p>
<p>There are still certain quarters of German society which don’t regard a FH diploma as equivalent of a German university degree which can affect potential promotion and social networking opportunities. Ironic considering the FH diploma holders can sometimes earn more than their university counterparts, especially when starting out. </p>
<p>Also, certain professions which require a bachelors degree here in the US don’t even require an FH diploma like becoming a nurse which is mainly dependent on a form of apprenticeship education in a hospital setting needed to pass state licensing exams. </p>