getting closer to a list-maybe

Parents Forum
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<p>It appears that visit, visit, visit is what is called for at this juncture. If you haven't already, you can start with schools within a few hours drive, or their equivalent in type, size, and selectivity - this approach may shake some apples from the tree (e.g. she might conclude "I hate the suburbs" or "no stables, no application." I took my horse to school and wouldn't have considered any college that didn't have on-campus boarding facilities or easy access to same.) </p>

<p>I can relate to the wide net you have cast. We tried to approach the "long" and "short" list selection from the standpoint of a top-down methodology like digmedia has offered above. However, my son was not initially able to refine a draft list of approximately 50 schools to research based on major - many interests, undecided - or size of school, or even location. </p>

<p>The visits helped the most. For example, our first trip away was to Ohio to visit two LACs. Within two days he had concluded that small LACs were not for him, and that the midwest was completely out. Two local LACs were left on the list as safeties, due to the likelihood that they would offer full tuition and other nice-to-haves (e.g., decent performing arts programs, study at Oxford program, etc.). He ended up applying to 12 colleges - 4 reaches (3 US, 1UK), 1 match without merit possibility, 2 matches with merit possibilities, 2 matches/safeties with better merit possibilities and interesting programs (e.g. University Professors Program at Boston U), and 3 local safeties with likelihood of full tuition or free ride. He is satisfied - confident that they all offer many wonderful features and that none of them would prove to be an awful mistake if he were to attend.</p>

<p>Curmedgeon, remember that your daughter doesn't have to do pre-med as a major (sounds like she has definite preferences). She can select any major as long as she meets the requirements. I recall reading about medical schools desiring applicants with variety, such as classics majors, history majors, etc. Given excellent grades, great MCAT, prereq course requirements met, a student can major in any subject and still be an attractive candidate to medical school. Worst case, she might miss a few prerequisites as an undergrad, take a year to work, fill in those courses, then apply.</p>

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<p>I realize different people have different ideas of how to spend the family <em>fortune</em>. But I'd just like to throw something in here for consideration.</p>

<p>Generally speaking, you only get merit $ at schools where your stats put you in the top 10% or so of the applicant pool. </p>

<p>There are studies about these things and in the AGGREGATE--not necessarily true in individual cases--girls who are at the top of their class stats-wise tend to underperform academically in college and be unhappy socially. Now, I'm sure there are a gazillion ANECDOTAL stories of girls who took the merit money and lived happily ever after. I'm just saying that this is one of the areas in which gender seems to make a difference. (Boys tend to perform better if they are near the top of their class stats-wise.)</p>

<p>IMHO, it's still the case that it's easier to be the smartest guy in the class--especially if you are half-decent at sports--than the smartest girl. Now, I realize that the SAT is not an intelligence test and that boys tend to mature later than girls, so some of the guys with worse high school records may end up doing very well in college. Having said that, I would just suggest that the OP give some thought to whether his daughter is going to be happy socially staying at the top of the class through college as she was in high school. She may be. </p>

<p>But there are a LOT of smart, high achieving young women out there who LONG to go to a college where they will be <em>normal</em> and won't feel like a freak. And, while I don't look on college as a place to get a "Mrs. degree," I also think that girls who are in the top 10% of the class stats-wise coming in are too likely to find that there aren't all that many young men of romantic interest. If you are looking at a school with a total student body of 2,000 and you are in the top 10%, that means that there are 200 people with the same sort of stats. Of those, at most LACs, about 60% will be female. Some of the other 40% will be gay. Some won't be of interest for other reasons. If you are looking at rural LACs, there's not going to be much interaction with other schools. So, you are really talking about a very small number of men who will be at about the same level. </p>

<p>It's not just the romantic angle either. I just think most--not all, but most--young women feel more comfortable socially when they aren't way beyond the norm in terms of intelligence and academic achievement at their colleges. </p>

<p>Just my two cents...</p>

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<p>curmudgeon,</p>

<p>I know Skidomore has equistrienne team. Saratoga Springs is racetrack town.</p>

<p>If you can check out some b-ball tourneys and games this is an excellent way to see the level of play. Obviously it is hard to know where on the roster the kids you are familiar with would be unless you see a game and see who the stars are, what the range it. But if your D is an athletic match for a #6 school that is GREAT news. This may make Williams a very good pick as they are a very sports oriented school and they may definitely aspire to top 25 status; they play Bowdoin & Bates I believe...</p>

<p>Finally, it is not too soon to have some coach contact at the schools that your D will definitely apply to like Bowdoin or Williams. I think some of these coaches may already have their eyes on certain juniors from their region; younger players who were on the same HS teams as their current players, etc. You want to get your D on their radar now. Make some tapes of her playing this season... then make a highlight reel. (Some coaches need to see this, thought the "1st team all league" and MVP stats, along with the general profile of the sport in your region, seem to translate well.)</p>

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<p>jonri, </p>

<p>It may not be PC but I agree with you. After being at the top of my HS, the feeling of belonging and being smack in the middle of the pack was one of the best things about my college experience.</p>

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<p>Cur - Nice list. Looks like she is on the right track but I agree that one or two more selective schools might be a good idea. The one that came to mind was Carleton, but I don't know about women's basketball there. </p>

<p>Thumper, If the U of San Diego is a possibility (it's a terrific school by the way), she might also take a look at Santa Clara U in San Jose. It's just a smidge more competitive but has the same sort of feel as USD. I also second Cur's suggestion of either Trinity U in San Antonio or Southwestern in Texas. Trinity is a terrific school and I know several kids who are very happy there. I also wouldn't rule out Rice.</p>

<p>My problem right now with my daughter is that she has very firm ideas about what she wants and doesn't want and there just aren't many good safety schools for her that fit in that category. The good news is she had a major boost in her GPA this semester so she now has a nice solid 3.6 GPA and hopefully that will go up even more second semester. Her SATs will (hopefully) be in the mid-1200 range for math/verbal but in the 1900/2400 range when her writing score is added. I'm worried that she's going to end up with too few schools rather than too many. </p>

<p>Right now, her current list: Reach: Lewis & Clark (will be visiting next weekend) and Beloit. Match: Earlham, Goucher Possible safety: Guilford (I am not sure about this after reading last week's thread).</p>

<p>All of these schools have an early admissions plan that is non-binding. I've researched the numbers and the acceptance rate for EA is about 10 -25% higher than RD so that might boost some of the schools into a lower category.</p>

<p>I'm hoping to get her to visit and/or consider: Willamette, St. Olaf, Knox, Hendrix, Lake Forest (probably not a fit), Whittier, Lawrence and U of Redlands. Her guidance counselor has suggested Santa Clara and Seattle U as possible safeties (school is considered a "feeder" for these two) but they are too big for my daughter's tastes. Any other thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. She is open to any school in any part of the country but doesn't like schools that are too preppy or where the students are too conservative. Most important to her seems to be a strong sense of campus community. A good art program would be a definite plus.</p>

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<p>Jonri:</p>

<p>I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you suggesting that a matriculating student in the top 10% (stats-wise) should automatically be in the top 10% of the college class, and if they are not, they are "underperforming." Moreover, by what measure is this underperformance? B's, C's, GRE?</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon
My son was very impressed with Allegheny - that it would be a 'hot' school if it were located in the NE. The CS department is very good. The fact that they offer neuroscience as a major would be plus for pre-med. Less preppy in feel than Colby. Merit scholarships start at 1300 SAT. My son has been offered $15,000 for each of four years with a 1460 SAT - that is their max. He applied via their 'Leadership' application after visiting - and got a response within two weeks. </p>

<p>Son's favorite LAC on his list is Bowdoin - so maybe he has similar tastes as your daughter. For reference, he did not like Conn College (too preppy) at all.</p>

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<p>Hi There:
I think she might like Dickinson in Pennsylvania...very good student body and ambitious about foreign study if you are also considering the region near Goucher. Also St. Mary's..the honors public college of Maryland has isolated on-the-water location but stellar students from a part of the USA with great public schools...and great intimacy with faculty. Another state school that is like a private school that I like a lot is the University of Mary Washington in charming and sophisticated Fredericksburg, Virginia. I know many happy adults who loved Mary Washington. She is in their admit range and northern Virginia location includes a train stop that gets her into DC for very little money anytime. In the South, I will vouch for the excellent faculty and grad school prep at Furman. The student body is largely from Atlanta and other big New South cities in Florida and the Carolinas, and Greenville is very much on the move as a city these days. Ties to the Southern Baptist convention were severed in the early 1980s, when Wake Forest did the same.</p>

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<p>Studies have shown that in the AGGREGATE, there is a difference in how males and females perform when put in a more selective/less selective college environment. (I can't cite a specific study, but I do know that this subject was addressed in one of the Kaplan/Newsweek annual college issues. ) Males who are in the top 10% of the class in terms of incoming stats do better academically and are happier than females whose stats put them in the top 10% of the class. Or, saying the same thing--females who are in the top 10% of the incoming class in terms of stats do less well academically and are less happy than males with similar stats. In the AGGREGATE, females did better academically and were happier when their stats didn't make them <em>stars.</em> Males tend to do better and be happier when they were <em>top of the heap.</em></p>

<p>My recollection is that performance was judged by gpa of studesnts at the same college. While I do NOT have exact numbers the data tended to show findings like this--purely hypothetical example; I do NOT recall the real numbers:</p>

<p>Males with stats in top 10% of incoming class--- -median 4 year gpa 3.8
Females with stats in top 10% of incoming class --median 4 year gpa 3.6</p>

<p>Males with stats at the 40th percentile(from top of incoming class) median 4 year gpa-----3.3</p>

<p>Females with stats at the 40th percentile (from top of incoming class) median 4 year gpa.............................................................3.5</p>

<p>On surveys asking "Would you choose to attend the same college again?" to graduating seniors, boys who were at the top of the heap in terms of incoming stats answered yes in a much higher percentage than the girls who were. </p>

<p>Again, I am sure all of you know a gazillion exceptions. I just think that MANY females are less comfortable than males being near the top of the class and that for many smart high school girls at the top of their high school classes, part of their <em>dream</em> college is being somewhere where they are no longer number 1 with a much greater frequency than is true for males. SBMom's experience--being happy in college because she was average--is, I suspect, more common for females than males.</p>

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<p>Carolyn, Thanks for the tips. I'm going to bookmark the sites for Trinity, Southwestern, and Santa Clara. Rice won't work. Their only music performance opportunities are for the music majors...and she REALLY wants to continue taking oboe lessons and playing in an ensemble.</p>

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<p>With a 32 ACT and/or 1400+ (2100? Don't have the new numbers down yet.) SATs your categories do look pretty conservative. Most of the match schools would actually be safeties.</p>

<p>But financially, your list is right on the money. Bates, Bowdoin et al may become matches from a selectivity perspective, but they are going to be just about as expensive as the Ivies and AWS. Just one more reason why Grinnell (superb school, reasonable selectivity, excellent financial aid) is a great choice for your D.</p>

<p>That said, if merit aid is not a make or break factor, I would consider adding Bates and Carleton to the list. Bates is in sort of a run-down mill town, but the town would be pretty easy to ignore on a daily basis. Plenty of sky visible at Carleton.</p>

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<p>Jonri, I do not question your numbers. But pragmatically, if I brought this issue up to the girls and their families that I work with on colleges, they would be insulted. There is no difference in the girls' motivations to go to a highly selective college, and I daresay statistically more girls are getting into the most selective schools even some of which where not coed until the last generation. And I believe I have seen stats that show that they graduate earlier, on average, have better grades and are more likely to graduate at all. I would be hard put to use this infor to sway any female to lower her sights in picking a college. But it is an interesting observation that bears investigating in female performance, particularly in business and in math/science areas where we do not see the women still.</p>

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<p>If there is any method to the list it is as follows:</p>

<p>D deserves an opportunity to apply to the dream schools based on her work. I know from reading that Princeton,Williams, and Dartmouth are all very generous with aid for someone they want. A family friend in similar financial shape was able to send his D to Yale, after they sweetened the pot to get a student they really wanted.(BTW, she excelled, went to Columbia Law, entered a joint program with The London School of Economics, just graduated and was declared ruler of the known universe. Impressive kid.) So, give my kid 3-4 shots at the top of need based. </p>

<p>The highest ranked merit aid schools that fit her highly personal criteria come next, with emphasis given to the amount of tuition remaining after applying the average merit aid award. Also, calculated at that time is the amount of the maximum merit award. For example, someone mentioned a school that has a max merit of $15k. At some it is as low as $10k, or $7500. I can live with that but not if the costs of attendance is $43k, at least I'd have trouble convincing myself I can live with that. I estimate EFC at anywhere from $24 to 36,000 depending on who is running the pencil. </p>

<p>Next are the gimmees. The "I can do this and she can get in , no problem" schools . Those are easy. Automatic scholarships and the like for set grades, class rank, and SAT /ACT.</p>

<p>That's what I am calling reaches , matches, and safeties.</p>

<p>So if the middle looks low and the top looks high to y'all-it's probably because it is, and that is why that is going on.</p>

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<p>Nothing wrong with applying to dreamschools. If any doubt with them, apply. I have often said that everyone should apply to HPY just to get it out of their system. I had to eat my words a bit when my son decided to do just that after coming up with 15 schools on his list, and I felt we had more than enough to do with those, but you know what, he did get into one of the lottery choices. You certainly are not going to get in if you do not apply.</p>

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<p>Jamimom,
I think you misunderstood what I'm saying...perhaps I was unclear. Far from convincing a young woman to lower her sights when choosing a college, the data I've seen would encourage her to opt to attend a MORE selective college INSTEAD OF accepting merit money.</p>

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<p>curmudgeon-</p>

<p>I'll add my $.02 to carolyn's and reidm's suggestion to put Carleton on your list since you are considering Grinnell in the same geographical area. Although, Carleton only offers merit $ for NMF ($2000/yr). With the class rank & stats you predicted, Carleton really is more of a match/slight reach for your D. The basketball team is currently undefeated in MIAC conference (8-0), the tallest girl is 6', and since your daughter is a junior, I noted that there are several current juniors on the team who will be graduating and need to be replaced. </p>

<p>I'm putting this bee into your bonnett because I've been surprised and impressed by my Frosh D's experience with 2 varsity teams there. She did not play the athletic recruit card for admissions. She was welcomed onto a winter/spring team without any experience in that sport whatsoever. She's having a blast participating and both she and the coach are not concerned where she places at a meet, only that she enjoys herself and improves as the season progresses.</p>

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<p>Ahh C-mudge, I see; your list is organized in terms of <em>financial</em> reach, match & safety; that makes sense now.</p>

<p>Within those catagories, the academic R/M/S and the athletic R/M/S are still factors. I think a school that offers merit aid can do "better" for a hot recruited athlete with great stats than they might if the athletic ability was not there.</p>

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<p>Wow, Curmudgeon, your daughter and mine are looking at a lot of the same schools. I can't remember - is she a senior or a junior? OK, I read over your posts and it looks like she's a junior. It looks like you've constructed a pretty thorough list combining both her reaches and safeties with your financial reaches and safeties. Another to consider is Sewanee - they have an equestrian team and are currently building a new center, I believe. Now, are you prepared to send her far away? Is she prepared for a climate change (my daughter loathes the cold, but is not interested in warm-climate schools - LOL)?</p>

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<p>Hi curmudgeon,
I sent you an email and also a PM to ask if you received the email. Apparently you are over your limit for PMs. So maybe you should clear some out, and also please let me know if you didn't receive the email. If there was a problem, I saved it and can resend!</p>

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<p>C'mudge - I agree with sbmom that your list, unlike most of us, is bottom heavy. At our similar size PHS, kids with your D's stats were getting in ED to Stanford, Yale, etc.</p>

<p>I also agree that your list could be shorter and a great way to do that is to go EA/rolling to any who have it; then, after early acceptance(s) - she'll surely get some - only apply to school(s) she would rather.</p>

<p>Be careful re ED - even if you think it will boost chances. See some threads here and elsewhere re ED dilemmas. You clearly are thinking re merit aid, and with ED you won't be able to compare. Even if your D is "sure" now that Grinnell is what she wants, contacts from coaches, deans etc. after apps are submitted could change her and your perspective. It happened to us. My son got in ED to one place and EA with large merit $$ to another. We worked with A and our GC to sort this out, but it is not anything you want to face.</p>