So, @thumper1, I know you weren’t talking to me … but I have some ideas about why your experience may differ from mine (if not @juillet’s – I wouldn’t know).
I will agree that full-rides very often take a separate application (and sometimes an interview process), but …
First, each of the examples you named are well-known full-rides that are widely publicized by the schools. I was making the point that some schools offer other scholarships that are not so widely publicized by the schools. I wouldn’t know, but perhaps @juillet was referring to the same.
Second, just off the top of my head, I can think of a handful of full-ride scholarships that do require a separate application, but only after the initial, university-wide application — meaning, the student applies to the university, and then the university, through one office or another, notifies the student that he/she is in the running for this certain scholarship and requests that the student complete the separate application, (usually) write an essay, and in many cases, attend an interview. (Has happened to my kids a few times.)
And third, there are hundreds and hundreds of schools across our nation. So many of us tend to focus on a fairly small percentage of them when discussing these matters. Maybe it’s because a lot of people place prestige above a free-ride/full-tuition? We placed a free-ride/full-tuition above prestige. And so we’ve gotten to know some really great schools who made really great offers. Most of the schools I’m talking about aren’t unrecognizable. They’re just not widely discussed. They’re not “top-tier.” The kids couldn’t attend all of them – they had to pick just one, lol. But if one aims lower than the best-known, often-talked-about schools, and especially if one has extraordinary stats, talents, or circumstances, one might be surprised by what’s out there.
Pretty much all schools are different. I got a full tuition scholarship but I had to interview for it. Some places, you won’t have to interview. Other places, you might only have to interview for a full ride.
Good point here is some info. Schools that I found with at least full tuition scholarships ( in no particular order ) Wake Forest, Davidson, Washington and Lee, university of Maryland, Catholic University, Villanova, Fordham , Richmond, Jefferson scholarship for UVA and Robertson Scholarship for Duke and UNC.
@Disneydad has some good ones. I would add Scranton, Pitt, St. Joe’s, LaSalle, Babson, Northeastern, Boston College, Arcadia, and of course Temple and Alabama (which are automatic by stats). These are colleges that kids by us often choose regardless of merit, but I’m sure there are lots more all around the country. If you’re chasing merit, find those colleges where you can figure yourself to be a top student. Apply to five or more of them. Make sure you’ve got at least one guaranteed for your stats (like Bama or Temple). In all likelihood, if you really are a top applicant, you will find one or more colleges willing to give you a competitive full tuition scholarship. Keep in mind that not only are Duke and Vandy real financial longshots merit money wise, but also Northeastern, BC, UVA, Nova, Richmond, etc. And that is true no matter how high your stats. Don’t count any top 50 school among your 5+ possible merit money apps. Think Scranton, LaSalle, etc. for them.
DisneyDad, the terms can be interchanged. One of my daughters received an ‘Alum Scholarship’ which seemed to be granted at the whim of the FA office since it didn’t seem to have a need or merit component. The other has an ‘alum grant’ from her school which was awarded for ‘knowing an alum’ (we knew no alum; the school just gave this to up the amount of aid). She also got a ‘grant’ for visiting the school before applying (we did do that). She has a state grant because she attends a private school instate school, a state scholarship for grades, a merit scholarship from the school and an athletic scholarship. They both got a ‘scholarship’ based on their relationship with a club member, not based on merit at all and not based on need at all, just luck of being related to a member.
I agree that there should be a distinction between merit aid and need-based aid when people are talking, but ‘scholarship’ ‘grant’ and ‘award’ are often interchanged. I suppose you can throw ‘prize’ in there too.
People shouldn’t discount the value of adding lots of scholarships/grants/awards/pennies from heaven to add up to full payment. Go for the big awards, but don’t discount the smaller ones. My daughter had 5 awards but no financial based aid when she started last year. She later received some need based aid, I qualified for the AOTC, so almost everything was covered this first year - close enough that I’m calling it a full ride. Seven sources of funding, and a ton of work keeping track of everything, but we got there.
Wow, so many experiences here. I wish all parents and kids read up on this before junior year! This is also a pet peeve of mine, even tho it is supposedly complimentary – need-based aid most top schools is called “full ride” or “scholarship” when it actually refers to the FAFSA/CSS/financial need. It sets up a false
This is an interesting thread. I would point out that it is very difficult for high-achieving students of lower-middle income families to be able to cast as wide a net as @SimpleLife suggests. These are students who will have difficulty coming up with a couple of grand for application fees, but because of their family income they will qualifiy for a LOT of need-based aid schools (like the Ivies, MIT, S, etc.) that meet 100% of need , often with no loans.
Students with family incomes below $65K often get application fee waivers, so this isnt’ an issue for them. Students with family income around $80-$110K (depending on what part of the country you are from) will struggle more coming up with an extra dozen application fees at $100 apiece. Getting into the Ivies may mean these students total cost for 4 years of undergrad is well under $20-$35K.
And in a perfect world, the HS guidance counsellor would be able to help advise students where to apply, but in our experience, the GC’s may be able to help give an idea as to where these students might expect a competitive chance at admission, but they struggle more with predicting if the student has a chance at a lot of merit-aid.
For families with middle-middle income (say $150-$170K per year), the need based aid theoretically becomes less important as they might not expect to get a lot, but if the student is fortunate enough to land the elusive, significiant merit aid, the total COA becomes much more affordable. These students might not be able to afford $65K per year, and if the school need based aid is expected to be $5000 - $15,000, it still leaves $200 -$240K after 4 years. Students in these families are probably better off chasing merit money and full rides.
Face it, these are students who have been elite compared to their peers, their entire lives. If they wants to continue that experience, and be at the high end of the applicant pool, by all means they should take @SimpleLife 's approach, and gamble that they might get a fantastic full ride at a “lesser-tier” school. They will still get a great education, perhaps not with the same research opportunities, but they will be at the top of their schools.
Some of these students will want the experience of being among mostly other students all at their academic level, and the securtiy of knowing that if they get accepted, it will be very affordable - maybe not free, but . So they will concentrate their applications to the elite schools.
If my S (now a Jr at Columbia) or D (HS senior, going to Stanford), had an extra few thousand to throw at applications, they may very well have expanded their net and included places where they could get significant merit aid. I am sure that many of the schools they didn’t apply to might have resulted in a full ride, and it is very possible they could have landed one of these. I don’t regret the choices they made (except for perhaps some of the application fees D paid, since she got into so many great schools).
@3puppies It doesn’t take thousands of dollars to apply strategically to schools which offer high merit scholarships. It doesn’t take applying to a lot. It take applying carefully.
FWIW, our ds is already experiencing awesome research opportunities at UA. He has been part of a research team this entire semester (2nd semester freshman) and has a paid summer research internship lined up. At one of the higher ranked schools, ds was told he be less likely to be involved in research b/c undergrads work for grad students, not directly with the profs.
@mom2aphysicsgeek - sorry - I don’t doubt that there are awesome research opportunities available at some of the lower tier schools like UA, and I am glad to hear your S is making the most of his opportunities.
My point is exactly the same as yours - applying carefully is a key. The student pretty much should have a good idea what he/she wants to major in, and should look at the schools that not only have solid programs, but that also give great merit aid. This pretty much isn’t a problem for the elite students we are talking about - they tend to have great analytical skills and are excellent problem solvers.
I got the impression from @SimpleLife and others, that they were recommending casting a wide net to include hundreds of schools. But remember that many of these same students are taking more than dozen AP classes, as they intend to use these courses either for credit or placement (skipping above intro level courses). Many are taking courses over their summers, or are working, during high school, so finding time to research the potential better deals is a stretch.
My D did not consider applying to UofA. She understood that she had the grades/ECs/scores that she would probably have what we consider affordable choices. She will be getting full tuition at Stanford, as well as significant assistance towards her room/board. We will be paying some of this, as well as her travel. But we can afford this, and she will graduate without loans, from her dream school.
She understood when applying that she was effectively turning down some options of a full ride - these were not guaranteed admission, but neither were several of the great schools she did choose to apply to. We sat down together and gave her some of the numbers needed to run the NPC’s at several schools, and it was clear that all the choices she was considering applying to would be affordable. Some - like Stanford and Yale - were clearly much more affordable than others.
One of her best friends comes from a very different family situation - their family income is almost triple ours, as they have 2 wage earners, to our family’s one income. This young lady will be salutatorian, with almost identical scores and GPA to our daughter. She did not apply to many of the same schools that D applied to, as it was clear to them that they were better off chasing merit money. She is deciding between OU and GW- as both have given her full tuition offers. She has turned down UofA because it is too far from home (we live in MA) compared to the others.
My point is that there are lots of valid reasons for deciding where to apply, and where not to apply. For many, family income is a key factor in deciding whether or not to chase full ride merit money - especially when expected need-based aid will be spectacular anyway.
@BobWallace That may be true if one qualifies for need based aid, but there are a lot of us who don’t and at the same time can’t afford the $65,000 year price tag. We have no choice but to chase merit. That’s just the way it is. It doesn’t make my child less meritorious of a top tier education.
You made some really good points here. I think we’re on the same page about many things, but I think you misunderstood my idea of “casting a wide net.” I certainly didn’t mean that one should apply to hundreds of schools (haha!) as you suggested in your post #32! Yikes! Nor did I mean that one should apply to dozens of schools, as you suggested in your post #28. That’s too many, too.
What I meant by casting a wide net is that one should keep an open mind and consider a wide range of schools when narrowing their list. One shouldn’t rule out a school based on (a) the school’s ranking on some list (within reason), or (b) the school’s reputation for not awarding much merit aid (within reason), or (c) what their peers (or even teachers) think of the school.
(There’s nothing wrong with researching whether or not a school gives good merit aid prior to applying, but my kids were each surprised by a few schools that offered them great aid that we had previously never heard of. So, if a school is an amazing fit in terms of personality and major and stats, then I recommend you consider it no matter what its reputation is for merit aid.)
The final list should include an assortment of schools that fit that student to a T.
The list must definitely include a financial safety. Absolutely essential. But the financial safety must also fit the kid as well as possible. In my opinion, it’s the great fit that increases the odds for success! If the school is a great fit, then it is more likely to grant admission and more likely to award scholarships (not directly because of the fit, but indirectly – because a student who is a great fit is likely to be very appealing to the school), AND the student is more likely to be very happy there.
The list can also include a handful of what some call “dream schools,” as long as those “dream schools” are actually within the realm of possibility for the student’s given stats and circumstances, AND as long as they’re truly a great fit for the student. (Otherwise, applying to them is probably a waste of money and time.) When I think of “dream schools” for my own kids, I don’t think of the ivies, FWIW, and neither did they. None of my kids applied to any ivies, even though they each had the stats for them and may well have been accepted to one or two. Neither of them were particularly attracted to the ivies, and none of the ivies seemed like the perfect fit for them. And so “dream school” doesn’t have to mean the same thing to all people. I call these schools “reach schools,” not dream schools. One of my kids (a musician) had Oberlin as a dream school, for example. Oberlin was that kid’s favorite, #1 school. It was still a reach – not because he didn’t have the stats, and not because it’s uber-elite (I realize it’s not), but because (a) admission depended upon perceived talent, and (b) lots of kids with excellent stats, and even great talent, don’t get in. And so, it qualified as a “reach” for him. Another kid’s “reach” was MIT. The reach must be a great fit, and it must be within the realm of possibilities. (Both kids got in with lots of money.)
And in the middle of those, the list should include at least a handful of other schools that are a truly great fit for that student’s personality, desires, major, stats, talents, etc, ignoring all outside influences as to which schools are “the best” schools. I just happen to think that the concept of “the best” schools is … well, it’s pretty much hogwash. The best schools are those that fit your kids the best! My kids’ lists were comprised of completely different schools, with one or two exceptions. After all, they’re completely different kids!
And so, that’s what I meant by casting a wide net. Not applying to hundreds, or dozens, of schools.
As an aside …
I completely disagree with this concept, though I know that many people think this way. Many of each of my kids’ stats could not possibly have been higher – SAT, ACT, class rank, gpa, etc. Could not have been higher. Still, none of them concentrated their applications on the “elite schools.” And each of them were surrounded by like-minded, like-brained, similarly capable, amazing students at each of their schools. (UofA, for example, to which one of my kids applied but did not attend, is FULL of total brainiacs because of their guaranteed scholarship policy. It’s a great school with great opportunities!) It is a myth that smarty pants kids cannot be found at many, many schools across the country. My kids were smarty pants, and they were accompanied by plenty of other smarty pants kids while in college! I’m not talking about dumbing down to the point of … well, an unrespectable school. It boggles my mind that some people think there aren’t enough brainiacs to go around at every flagship state school and plenty of LAC’s across the country! Students of exceedingly high academic levels are at almost every good school, not just the “elite” schools. And, in my experience, amazing opportunities tend to pour in for the tippy top students at just about every good school. So, if your kid is a tippy-top student at any school, your kid will very likely have a stupendous education! (Not to mention those scholarships we’re all aiming for – great opportunities plus money in the bank = a world of wonder and fun!)
And that is what I meant by casting a wide net. Imo, one must throw out those preconceived notions and apply to the best fit schools, not “the (supposedly) best” schools.
But I definitely agree, @3puppies, that my plan is better suited to middle-income students or higher, because it does get expensive to apply (and visit) all of these schools, and because (as you pointed out) great students with need are likely to get great need-based aid, rendering my plan a relative waste of time and money.
I think @mom2aphysicsgeek is right, and I saw that you agree – applying carefully is the key. And I also agree with you that income level can be a key factor in whether or not a student will (or should) chase the merit money. I hadn’t really thought of that prior to your input.
Thanks for the clarification, @SimpleLife . Since in our family situation, we have plenty of need, it only made perfect sense to narrow our choices to the elite schools that provided fabulous need based aid. We had been surprised that even after a full-tuition merit scholarship at Flagship State, the total COA was still more than Columbia would cost my son. And we found out it would be the same story for D at Stanford.
We hadn’t thought much about why the other top-ranked students in our district were choosing “lesser-ranked” schools until one mentioned the fact that the merit aid they had gotten was so generous - it clearly made sense for them. We have never really been concerned about how comparatively little our family income is because we have been frugal, and we have been fortunate that our kids are high achievers. So it will work out for them.
One GC told us that the smart kids often come from smart families - those that will find a way to do what is best for their family situation. It was his way of telling us he was convinced D could figure out where to apply, and have a better sense of the important variables, and we probably didn’t need his help. He understood my medical condition that prevents me from paid employment, and while he could probably guess what H earns, he made it clear he didn’t need to know more to do his job for us, unless we wanted to provide him with more details. And since he (and only one other FT GC, plus one part-timer) has 550 other kids to be concerned with, we were on our way.
While it is true that many other schools have lots of smart kids, there is a difference between being in an honors program of 200 - 1000 kids at a school of 40,000, versus being at a HYPCSM etc. where everyone is a stellar student. But this gets more to the idea of fit, where will your kid be happiest - and for many bright kids, they just can’t tell when they are only 17-18 years young.
And @BobWallace , thanks for putting it so succinctly in post #33. Also, big thanks for your work with your threads summarizing some of the best need-based, and merit based aid, especially for both in and OOS students.
@3puppies, it sounds like it made total sense for your kids to apply to Columbia and Stanford. Awesome schools!! I have definitely heard that the most elite private schools often result in a lower COA than most other schools, including flagship state schools. It’s fascinating, but true! I’m so glad that your kids were wise enough to apply, in addition to being smart enough to attend! I also completely agree that good need-based aid is often better than good merit-based aid. So congratulations to your successful kids (and their mom!).
These Honors Colleges offer a niche market for middle class to higher income/asset families to send their kids without paying too much. For kids from poorer families, if they can get into big time brand name colleges, the colleges will end up giving them a lot of financial aid.
I also completely agree that good need-based aid is often better than good merit-based aid. So congratulations to your successful kids (and their mom!).