<p>Clinical experience, volume, and reputation are all components that go into being a “top” program though I agree with eadad that surgical experience is not guaranteed at any program. Just because you work with the most well-known surgeon does not mean that you will get to do everything in the case. That being said, volume numbers are notoriously flawed. The majority of numbers are self-reported and you designate your degree of involvement. Some places will say look I did 4000 cases, but the majority are small cases, second or third assist that are listed as primary surgeon, etc. All doctors know to not trust those numbers. “Top” program has more to do with prestige, pedigree, research, than with clinical competence. The truth is that most people with proper guidance can learn to be a surgeon over 5 years. You don’t need to be a genius. Elite programs simply select who they want to train. Not that any other person would not learn and do a good job in the same environment.</p>
<p>there arent that many schools with 240 step 1 averages. Obviously the students are smart, but do you think the curriculum has an impact on the step scores?</p>
<p>No I don’t. It’s because the students are smart. I don’t think we get bad training but I don’t think we get superior training either. But, that doesn’t negate the fact that honors or AOA is worth more at my school because I have stiffer competition.</p>
<p>I don’t think top med schools have superior teaching. I think the benefit of going to a competitive medical school is interacting with a really driven and accomplished student body that pushes you to do your best.</p>
<p>I heard some schools (albeit not many) do not have AOA, or at least do not announce AOA before it matters (similar to the case that STEP-2 score does not matter if it is taken a little bit late, or a higher schooler take tons of AP classes in senior year because he knows its score does not count.)</p>
<p>Just like some specialties are “life-style” specialties, are these schools “life-style” medical schools as the ambitious ones may only need to gun for honors, not the more elusive AOA? (I guess the clinical years are still like in a hell at any school – sleep starvation and all that.)</p>
<p>I really don’t think anyone guns for AOA. You’re giving 105% no matter what. If it results in AOA, great. If it doesn’t, hopefully it at least gets you honors.</p>
<p>Although it is still too early for DS to decide (he is an MS1), I heard recently he may go the IM route and then specialize later. Is it relatively much “easier” than ROAD?</p>
<p>He also mentioned that, as compared to UG, he needs to study more regularly if not constantly, as there is much more material to absorb. He is a student who would try to complete all or almost all assigned readings, at least before MS. He may not be able to do the same now.</p>
<p>Again. 
I sure hope my kid has this figured out. Her school? No AOA. I don’t even know what grades they have MS3 and 4 but I’m gonna go check.</p>
<p>curm, I suspect your D’s school still has AOA. They just intentionally announce it later than usual – in order to help the bottom 84 (or 85?) percents at the expense of hurting the top 16 percents.</p>
<p>I could be wrong though.</p>
<p>Nope. No gotty AOA chapter. 
That part I knew. [Alpha</a> Omega Alpha - Chapters](<a href=“http://alphaomegaalpha.org/chapters.html]Alpha”>Chapters - Alpha Omega Alpha)</p>
<p>Edit: They have grades in the clerkships H, HP, P, and U.</p>
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<p>IM is much easier to get into than the ROAD specialties but of course people’s minds will change many times through the course of medical school.</p>
<p>Regardless of how your school grades, you are going to be evaluated against your peers. There are a couple of schools without AOA (namely, Harvard and Yale), there are some schools that are P/F the 1st two years, there are some schools that are P/F all 4 years, and there are schools that don’t have grades but rather written evaluations. But, residency programs are not going to let the med school get away with saying “Johnny will be an excellent house officer next year” for every student. At some point, usually in the form of coded language (Johnny is an “excellent” student while Suzie is a “superb” student), there needs to be separation between various applicants from the same med school.</p>
<p>Kristin,
"I found a great fit and I couldn’t be happier. My $0.02: it’s not all about the name. "</p>
<p>-Definitely my D. She has chosen a bit lower ranked because she felt that both School and city are better fit for what she was looking for for next 4 years of her life. She always think of any place from prospective of living/spending part of her life there, then secondarily as a learning/academic advancement. She is very self-relient in academics, she believes that she could do very well anywhere, she does not need to rely on prestigious name. So far it has been working for her.</p>
<p>Among the top tier schools, graduates from Harvard and Johns Hopkins have additional aura. However, if an applicant is very accomplished, as evidenced by lead authorship in papers of top medical journals, good references and standing and an demonstration of keen interest in our specialty, it will guaratee a spot in our program, regardless of which medical school (except IMG).</p>
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</p>
<p>Ah, that book is my bible right now :)</p>
<p>But I don’t believe that it is so popular because it is from MGH, but rather because it is such a great, well-laid out and concise resource for all things IM. I personally had no idea where it was from when I bought it - only knew that it was highly recommended by basically everyone from the M4s to the interns and residents and no one seemed to carry anything else. Could’ve been written at Middle of Nowhere University.</p>
<p>There are several other pocket medicine references from well-respected institutions, and none have caught on like “the green book” because they’re not as good, not because their institution isn’t as highly ranked.</p>
<p>Agree with norcalguy and Kilbeez012. During our small group meetings, several professors have already dropped the line: “if any of you are interested in this topic, I can call such and such at _______ (fill in big name school) and get you to work with them in the summer”. This places the students in a privileged position for future residency or future research with that physician.</p>
<p>And from what I can tell, this may play an even bigger role while going from residency into a fellowship. My sister was telling me how she did not even have to formally apply for a fellowship last year. Her Residency Program Director asked her where she wanted to go and he made a phone call. She was accepted right on the spot. Her husband has a similar story (at times I get the impression that it is almost like belonging to a club). </p>
<p>Also, I do think that the term “top programs” have more to do with prestige, pedigree, research, than with clinical competence. In addition, some people may choose to attend a “top program” just for the overall experience and nothing else. Years ago, one of my college interviews was with a Harvard undergrad and medical school trained physician who was very happy working as a pediatrician in private practice (no academics, no fancy research, yet she was thrilled with her school experiences). My father also tells me about colleagues that are capable of citing 10 references from the most recent journals whenever a case is being discussed, but who unfortunately have a hard time making a correct diagnosis initially. Coming from a top program, and being well read and knowing the literature well, does not necessarily make someone a better clinician.</p>
<p>^MyOpinion,
But on another side of the coin, there are DO’s working in the same office with MD and doing amazingly well, implementing some innovative procedures and getting well known internationally. I just had an experience with nose/throat/ear specialist last week and was very satisfied, much more than many of my visits with MD’s who sometime seem to be completely clueless. I do not think that this DO came from some prestigious place. He also seem to be relatevely young and I also do not think that he is making less money or anyhow inferior to his colleque MD. They are mentioned together, it is their office, there is no indication that one is working for another.
So, it seems to support your last sentence 'Coming from a top program, and being well read and knowing the literature well, does not necessarily make someone a better clinician. " It looks that success depends much more on person than anything else.</p>
<p>Well what I think would be a top medical school would be roughly (and i say this because i mite have left out a few schools here in between) : Johns hopkins, harvard, WUSTL, etc…</p>
<p>basically the top schools listed here at this web-site:
[Best</a> Medical Schools. Compare Medical School reviews & ratings.](<a href=“http://medical-schools.findthebest.com/]Best”>http://medical-schools.findthebest.com/)</p>
<p>and yes i would like to go to a top medical school because i want to become a radiologist doctor and i believe that the more competitive schools like harvard or JHU will have the resources to give me a better chance to get that residency, as radiology is one of the most competitive fields in medical school.</p>
<p>also i want to go to a state undergraduate college because tuition will be cheaper (i can probs geta full ride) and because i know i will be able to maintain the cumulative and BCPM GPA that is so crucial to getting into medical school :D</p>
<p>But you guys might have different opinions.</p>
<p>Radiology is actually relatively “easy” to get into, versus something like plastics, in the sense that there are many, many programs despite the relative competitiveness of each. As I go to a “top medical school”, I can pretty confidently say that there are no specific magical resources available to me that would help me go into radiology. If you wanted to be an academic radiologist, then yes I suppose the larger research program here could help, but many to most students going into radiology here do not do much in the way of research (like taking a year off). A good student can get into radiology from any medical school.</p>
<p>I don’t necessarily agree with that. Yes, radiology is easier to get into than derm and plastics. But, that’s it. The average USMLE score of someone matching into radiology was 240, as high as any other specialty (with exception of those 2). So, it’s easier than 2 specialties, as tough as around 5 or so others, and more competitive than 80% of all specialties. </p>
<p>If your aspiration is to simply match into radiology, then there are a lot of programs. But, for specialties like radiology and anesthesiology that have a ton of programs, there are also a lot of “subpar” or “bad” programs. The best radiology programs are still extremely difficult to get into and it’s helpful to go to a great med school. For example, I’ve noticed that the middling radiology applicants from my school (and that includes me whose USMLE score is barely above average and whose grades are probably below average for a radiology applicant) are getting interviews that top applicants from lesser med schools get. For example, I have interviews from 5-6 “top tier” radiology programs despite average-slightly below average USMLE scores and grades. I may be the worst radiology applicant from my school this year.</p>
<p>I heard in the anatomy class at DS’s school, “radiology-lite” is emphasized in the sense that students are asked to read a lot of X-ray. (Please forgive me if what I talk about really does not make any sense.) At other school, maybe the emphasis in the preclinical years is placed elsewhere, e.g., biochemistry emphasis at UTSW, physiology emphasis at another school, etc.</p>
<p>Also, when the professor is very good, there is less need to dig into the tome(s), but when the professor is not as good, then the students have no choice but rely on wading through these tomes.</p>
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<p>LOL, that list appears to have been compiled by writing names on cards and tossing them into the air.</p>