Getting Plowed: My Freshman Year at Princeton

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>It depends on when you ask me this question. My response at the beginning/middle of freshman year would have been an adamant “yes.” I will be honest. When I was immensely overwhelmed and felt inadequate, I wanted to leave. I regretted choosing Princeton. I was more than eager to give up the prestige for stability, happiness, and comfort. I often berated myself for not choosing (insert names of “less competitive” colleges I also was admitted at). I thought, why should I have to suffer at Princeton when people at Penn, Brown, Stanford, Columbia seem to have a decent quality of life while still enjoying the good reputation? This hit an all time low about mid semester of my first term when I was legitimately filling out transfer applications. </p>

<p>Ultimately, my parents deterred me from submitting these applications. If it had been my choice and I had been making one with no strings attached, I would have transferred. But the logistics are not that simple. I had to suck it up. </p>

<p>I gradually began to adjust better to Princeton. Don’t get me wrong - in the back of my mind, I still have an inkling of “regret”. I still wonder, what if I had gone to _____? I think that this thought will never cease to be on my mind. But, that is the pain of having many previous options for colleges. It made me more angry at my current environment, more anxious, and more unsettled. </p>

<p>I am still trying to figure out my place at Princeton, and have three years to go. So to answer the question, I say “yes” and “no.” I have gone from an adamant “yes” to an almost “no.” The grass is always greener on the other side, but we have to commit to a side. Whenever I feel regret, I try to remind myself of my feelings and my intuition when I chose Princeton in the first place. I reflect on the time when I was in love with the campus and the atmosphere. This helps to ease my moments of regret.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for your thoughts on your first year. You seem like a smart and thoughtful kid, and I am so happy that you found your way in such a harrowing time. I cannot imagine what it must be like for young people to embark on their freshman year at a school like Pton, but your posts have provided some great insight. </p>

<p>As for those who question the difficulty of classes at Pton, us parents were given a seminar on what our kids can expect at the parents weekend in October. We were told that most kids get Ds on their first physics/math/orgo tests…and that this is normal. </p>

<p>I have also heard from students that in the math and science classes that there are “clicker” quizzes all the time. That means that you can’t be facebooking during lectures. The professor asks questions and students are expected to respond with clickers and they are graded on their scores as well as other tests, homework, and papers.</p>

<p>As for writing courses, students write 20-page research papers…and usually the first drafts are completely thrown out. Students are expected to do several drafts. They learn quickly that writing is rewriting. They learn to use the Writing Center. It’s a valuable lesson, but it’s difficult for smart kids who are used to writing papers in the 11th hour and getting As.</p>

<p>I saw my D’s stats introductory textbook (a class I loved at UCLA and encouraged her to take), and I couldn’t believe it. The first chapter discussed ideas that most second-year students would have trouble with. The classes are definitely harder than I ever expected. A lot of independent legwork on the part of the student is definitely expected.</p>

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<p>the workload at all the top schools will all be a lot. writing seminar, which is mandatory for all freshmen to take, definitely has the most physical work, with papers and drafts and lots of research. our final research paper was 12 pages, but so many more pages were put into drafting and revising and more revising. junior papers aren’t even that bad in terms of length, but the amount of time and effort put into writing these papers are enormous. then you get to the senior thesis, where people put in not only 100-200 pages worth of material, but it basically is a reflection of your 4 years and what you’ve learned and gleaned from your studies and experiences. its tough, but we all knew what we signed up for, and we’ll all become much better from it. there isn’t much else like it.</p>

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<p>Do the professors actually read the entirety of these long papers?</p>

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<p>So would you guys say Princeton is the toughest of the top schools/Ivies? Because this sounds like an insane amount of work. Some have said in this thread that no matter what school you go to there will be a lot of work, but the fact that most kids get D’s in their freshmen classes?</p>

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<p>Most kids do not get Ds in their freshman classes (what mrscollege said was that most kids get Ds on their first physics/math/orgo quizzes). In addition, I think that the freshman writing seminars requirements have been overstated here. Students are expected to write approximately 4 papers, with a total requirement of 30 pages–this doesn’t seem out of line with what other top colleges might expect. I think however, that many high school students are either not required to write a lot, or writing assignments are graded somewhat leniently, so that the Princeton rigor might well come as a shock.</p>

<p>And yes, Princeton professors read the junior papers and theses quite carefully–it’s a collaborative effort and the professors are generally eager to help students produce interesting and well-written papers. </p>

<p>As I have stated in the past, I am not a big fan of grade deflation. However, by the end of four years at Princeton, students have soared academically, most of them would not trade their experience for anything and they are intensely loyal to the school. In fact, this past year, the rate of alumni giving for the class of 2010 was 83.3%–a record for the school and reflecting the fact that Princeton offers a unique, challenging, life-changing and ultimately amazing academic and social experience for most students.</p>

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<p>Yes, to be clear I said that most freshmen get very low grades on their first quizzes. I believe we were told at the parents seminar that a 60% is not an uncommon score. I think they were trying to reassure us that this happens but that most kids figure out how to adjust. Basically, it’s going to be tough but don’t panic haha.</p>

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<p>Thanks again for sharing your valuable experiences, OP.</p>

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<p>I’m pleasantly surprised by that figure. The grade deflation issue did seem to be darkening the dialogue of many students when speaking generally about Princeton, but what you cite serves to mitigate what is apparently the real impact of those concerns.</p>

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<p>It’s because it’s not really a grade deflation anymore it’s moreso a grade “suppression”. For example, the average GPA was pretty high before at Princeton and now it grades like elite schools in the south and the deflation has essentially stopped and grades have leveled off to a nice new level (now, it is simply less inflated or not inflated). I mean, I think 35% As is a lot, even at a top school w/awesome students. Not to mention, since tiger is in science/math courses, he probably would not have seen its (grade suppression/lower grading curves are common in the sciences and are normally much tougher than the 35% A policy) affects anyway. </p>

<p>Anyway Tiger2014: Keep your head up, you can, and I expect you to do well next year. Despite what you saw from your friends at other Ivy Leagues, that was quite a small sample size and you have to realize that there are perhaps a surprising number of students like you, especially at elite schools, that get it stuck to them. When I was a freshman here at Emory (and now as a tutor and mentor), I’ve see it happen to the best. About 1/2 of the freshmen on my hall frosh year were taking advanced courses of some sort ( I and about 4 others were taking organic chemistry and that was brutal w/the frosh orgo. prof. If I was looking for an easy time, should have taken sophomore level b/c that prof. is awesome but has extreme expectations, especially for motivated freshmen. Actually sets bar lower for upperclassmen. Assbackwards, huh? lol. Anyway, others took advanced math and physics). Needless to say, plenty of us struggled. Some students got no higher than a B- (one of my friends had gen. chem Linear Algebra, gen. biology, and the typically hard grading Eng. prof. and needless to say, most grades were Cs. She was in linear algebra w/my friend who lived next to me, who also received a C in the class) at least 1 semester of frosh year. Now-a-days, I’m seeing higher powered freshmen w/more abundant and tougher courses and some do extremely well and some struggle like never before. It’s a whole new environment and some people underestimate it and some overestimate. </p>

<p>One pattern I do notice is that students who struggle frosh year seem to figure it out sophomore and start doing quite well (I mean much better, and not while watering their course load down either) and a surprising amount of students doing well freshmen year become complacent for some reason and experience a sophomore slump of sorts. Having a hard time freshmen year and learning from it then is probably very convenient compared to those (many of my friends had this, actually, even I did. Luckily I recovered quite nicely) who experience a sophomore shock. Anyway, don’t ever think about giving up. See what you can do better this upcoming year and apply it, even if it’s something as simple as seeking more support or help. I know many students that were top notch students from HS who simply don’t do this and it would have served them extremely well to do so. Even top notch students are imperfect and need help at times (much more so than you think). Realize that you are still a top student and do what it takes to get better (this should be the goal at a top institution. To be challenged and become even better than the top notch student you already are. When you think you can’t do any better, they reveal otherwise. It’ll pay off, trust me). Good luck Tiger, I predict that positive change is coming your way this upcoming academic year. You can do it, put faith into your own ability in addition to any learning auxiliaries offered and realize that you were not the only at an elite school to experience that. The grass is not greener (in some cases, it may simply be less brown) on the other side in this case, trust me. I’ve looked at samples of work between schools and many/most of Princeton’s peers are quite intense. Some may just have softer grading, particularly outside of the sciences.</p>

<p>braniac: Most elites are tough to a reasonable part of the student body. Keep in mind that everyone is used to having a solid 4.0+ in HS, even at some boarding school. So even having a 3.0-3.4 is a HUGE shock to them (they probably heard too many stories about college, even elites, supposedly being easy for students like them. In reality, it was an over exaggeration and an over-generalization). Some take courses where the averages are in the 2s where most students get between C+ and solid Bs. You can imagine the quotes: “But I did really well in AP chemistry!” In reality, the course at an elite school moves faster and the workload and outside commitment to the course is harder (and you don’t have the prof. constantly reminding you or even grading the HW, you have to tell yourself, if I don’t do it, even if not for a grade, I will not pass). I remember one of my poor friends getting AP credit for gen. chem 1 and then taking the first gen. chem 2 exam and getting a 59. Another w/AP also got in the 50s. One recovered (one actually got an A due to a policy that weights the lowest score as half. He made 98+ on the others) in the course and one didn’t.</p>

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<p>[url=&lt;a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2011/04/29/28457/]This[/url”&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2011/04/29/28457/]This[/url</a>] sheds some light on an overwhelming sense of depression at Princeton-- something that goes deeper than just suffering in classes. I personally can’t comment much on the topic, but I know a few Princetonians that have suffered through this, so if it’s any consolation, you’re all in it together. Aside from the tough academics, there’s so much to do and learn at Princeton that I’m sure everyone grows into the school and learns to enjoy themselves. At the end of the day, something very bad or traumatic has to happen for a student to completely despise the institution that supposedly provides them with their first true education.</p>

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<p>supersizeme</p>

<p>Perhaps you misunderstood my statistics. The most recent classes at Princeton (the ones most likely to have experienced grade deflation) have had incredibly strong rates of Annual Giving. The class of 2010 had, as I stated, a rate of 83.3% and the most recent graduating class, the class of 2011, had an astounding pledge rate of 94.2% (this many students pledged to give money to Princeton over the next 4 years). This hardly is an argument supporting massive depression at Princeton (of course your suggestion of a sort of mass hypnosis is not ruled out, but unlikely).</p>

<p>And I can guarantee you that although many people question themselves at various points at Princeton and may have social or academic problems, similar to students at every other top university, there is hardly an overwhelming sense of depression at Princeton. Although I may be one of the “older generation”, my daughter graduated in 2010 and I believe that my perspective and knowledge of the school is reasonably current (and although I don’t mean to cast aspersions on you, since you are still in high school, I doubt that your knowledge of Princeton is particularly encyclopedic).</p>

<p>Sorry, supersize me, I responded to a post that you apparently edited to remove the sentences I referred to.</p>

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<p>That article from the Princetonian rings true. Many people do try to hide their dark feelings while feigning a smile or a friendly greeting. I think that this gives the appearance of superficiality. It’s not that people are superficial and uncaring, it’s that the type of people who go to Princeton tend to be more driven, keen, and discerning when pursuing relationships with their peers. Many Princetonians appear faultless, and maintaining this image is stressful. Most people do not talk about/show their failures, their worries, their troubles on the surface. This creates the illusion that everyone is perfect, happy, and competent, which can create more distress. </p>

<p>That said, some people truly are happy and well adjusted, making them appear more genuine. These people are often those with ties to Princeton, legacies, athletes, people in close clubs, etc. It’s as if they carried their former high school environment to college. This is perhaps due to a strong support network, which creates a sense of belonging. These types of people are more laid back, and seem to not sweat a lot of things. I think that the meritocratic system can be blamed for many students’ unhappiness. Those who came from less privileged backgrounds and worked very hard to get into college feel that they have less leeway to relax and indulge in social activities, sports, and so on.</p>

<p>I think that this is the dichotomy in the student body. The genuinely happy students on campus have louder voices, and they drown out the “quiet suffering” of students who are studying in the library.</p>

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<p>What about those students that are burnt out from working hard in HS (primarily to get into an elite school) and thus arrive somewhat unprepared or merely unwilling to work even harder to maintain the same or lesser grades/achievement than they did in HS? I’m thinking this leads to its own issues. Again, I’m sure there are a sufficient amount of students at elite schools that bank on every stereotype about college (primarily those presented in media sources such as movies that generally highlight the vibrant social atmosphere) being true upon arrival. They also probably heard about the grade inflation that most of us have and thus feel they can work less hard. In reality the grade inflation (no longer at Princeton really) is nowhere near the amounts most received in HS (via extra credit projects, grade breakdowns that may put less emphasis on exams or writing assignments, essentially anything that may be graded “for real”). Harsh reality is, even w/any grade inflation, most students will not get the same GPA they did in HS and many will not get even close.</p>

<p>Also, people come in w/nice weight GPAs where they had like a 4.1-4.7 in HS, things that (weighting or even plentiful 4.0s) just don’t happen at elite colleges (even those w/the highest inflation, Stanford, Brown, and Yale only have about 3.55-3.6ish for an average). The average HS GPA (w/weighting) for a student at an elite is maybe 4.0 and then, they arrive after “working so hard in high school” only to work harder to get between a 3.25-3.4 average (okay, Duke, NU, Harvard, WashU are higher). I’d also imagine the concept of receiving a C/B grade in English, foreign language or any social sciences/humanities is a prospect that is inconceivable to most (again, these people, many of them, have never received any sort of B). </p>

<p>The only thing that sucks about Princeton now is that such classes now have a grading curve w/fixed percentiles, so now, not only will people receive a fair share of Bs, but they’ll have a gut feeling that it’s simply because they weren’t better than 35% of students as opposed to simply because it was deemed as B level work at Princeton (which it may have been, but such a system does involve another party as opposed to you and the instructor). Our B-school has such a policy (35% can receive A grades and 20% must receive C+ or lower) and I think it leads to fair grading (their courses are easier than most in the college so w/o it, if applied to a normal scale, their grades would be significantly higher), but it would be nice if they could simply make the coursework or standards high enough so that a distribution is naturally yielded that way. That way, when people get less than an A, it’s because they did not meet the fixed standard (that doesn’t involve other students, the 3rd party) which were set at a reasonable level for an elite school. Such a system may lead to stress (since standards are higher), but at least it won’t lead the the ever impending inferiority complexes. It’s very simple, if you work hard, you get an A or B (grade breaks will not be pushed up if too many people meet the standard and breaks will not be lowered for those who did not). </p>

<p>I go visit Georgia Tech often and their students seem more forthcoming and open about academic shortcomings or expressing feelings of stress in general (people say it has a reputation of being overly stressful. And now I’m convinced that the only difference is that they are more open about it and often make light of it). I think there, it is such an environment that students get over grades after a while (also, collaboration is essential for survival there, so it’s less competitive. Classes are hard enough where grades can only be raised. System is made tough enough so that almost everyone is on equal playing field and about everyone gets a nice piece of humble pie, especially frosh year), whereas, at Princeton, here, and other elite privates, the overindulgence (and often entitlement mentality) with grades and the competitive (Emory is collaborative, but still in a very competitive manner. Even though most classes don’t grade on real curves if any, students still try and compare themselves w/others, almost too much) atmosphere probably encourages “silent suffering”. Basically, you don’t want to let peers know when you’re struggling so you try not to tell specifics about your academic life outside of a close group of friends. All of this stemming from the fact that you believe that you will be the outcast on campus w/o the 3.5-4.0 GPA and are thus undeserving to attend or are “dumb” when in reality, not even 1/2 have it yet and it certainly isn’t that common in the sciences (seriously, science majors do the same thing even though average grades given in such depts. range from like 2.8-3.2. You mix this w/non-science Gen. ed requirements and it probably only yields a 3.0-3.4 average among science majors). Seems that we fear our peers and the consequences of being imperfect (job prospects, prof/grad. school etc.) to the point that many don’t take in the experience as a whole.</p>

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<p>Parents of students at Princeton and its peer institutions can help their sons/daughters have a smoother transition if they </p>

<p>1)Talk to their sons/daughters about being setting reasonable expectations around grades. Make sure your son/daughter knows that it is just fine to get lower or even much lower grades the first year than they did in High School. The world will not end. Encourage them not too take all very hard classes first term and to seek help when they need it.</p>

<p>2)Encourage your sons/daughters to get involved in the community. Join something fun. It’s a great way to meet friends with similar interests. It is extremely important to have an outlet and belonging to some sort of on campus group is a great one.</p>

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<p>^soomoo
Most of the time parents of students at Ivy schools are the worst. They are the ones who push for a “brand name” than students themselves.</p>

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<p>no need to limit soomoo’s advice to “Princeton and its peer institutions” - the advice is good for any incoming freshman. </p>

<p>and compaq, I have to take issue with your broad brush denigration of Ivy parents. You’re simply wrong.</p>

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<p>I don’t think it’s a completely fair generalization (they probably didn’t mean it to apply to every parent. You know that they were probably exaggerating to emphasize that they probably are more frequent at such institutions) but I can see a larger amount of elite school parents (especially Ivies) being tougher and more oriented toward the “brand” than at less selective schools. Seriously, imagine the parent that is unreasonably disappointed (to the point where they constantly remind them of it or more or less rub it in) that a child has to go here, Emory, instead of say Princeton (in other cases, imagine what tougher, more pushy/helicopter parents expect out of a student at an Ivy like Princeton. I wouldn’t be surprised if many parents’ expectations of perfection persist) or some more selective school. Parents like this actually exist. Not only that, but imagine what happens if they don’t do as well as expected here (whether they wanted to be here or not). Luckily, these types are probably nowhere near the majority, but I’ve heard about them (some friends admit they have parents like this and tell some of the “not so nice” things they say when they struggle in a class. Think “Tiger Mother”). Yeah, many students indeed do have parents whose “helicopter” approach persists in college. If we have many students with “enough is never enough” parents, Ivies probably have more than their fair share as well.</p>

<p>That’s actually why we have a session for parents during orientation presented by one of the professors/scholars in the psychology dept. to try and explain the nature of the college transition, and the many ways they can help facilitate. One key element of the talk is emphasizing academic expectations and making it clear that while the student may certainly do well, do not expect 4.0s (and perhaps not too close to it either) as it is very rare even among the best students (one A- and you’re out. Never mind the isolated B+). Basically saying to not put such intense pressure on them as they already pressure themselves and often say things like: “How did I even get in?” and “I don’t belong here”, etc.
Here is a video of the talk: <a href=“http://www.youtube.com/user/EmoryUniversity#p/search/11/QRBLuDqqfLI[/url]”>Emory University - YouTube;

<p>It’s long so real need to watch it all. Just for anyone interested in something that articulates the ideas in soomoo’s post even further.</p>

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<p>@midatlmom – I thought that stat was a percentage of all the alums, only to realize that I misread it. I edited without even seeing your comment, so my apologizes for making you write so much as a result of my carelessness. </p>

<p>And compaq10 is making a brash assumption, but not one that has absolutely no basis. Ivy League students come from varying backgrounds, so naturally many of these student’s parents are bound to be concerned about their DS/DD’s academics. At the same time, there are obviously a fair share that don’t care much at all.</p>

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<p>Too bad this worthwhile post has been hijacked by a poster with no experience as either a Princeton parent or student, and it would be a shame if potential applicants read what bernie and compaq have to say and give it more weight than it deserves. </p>

<p>The original post and responses are, IMO, an honest and useful depiction of one student’s experience, thoughtfully described. But look at Bernie’s language: “imagine,” “probably,” “I’ve heard,” “I wouldn’t be surprised if…” It’s not all that helpful (or interesting, really) to have to wade through B’s ruminations on a subject with which he has no direct experience. A general discussion on the subject of student performance and parental expectations at elite schools does not belong on the Princeton forum.</p>

<p>As an aside, I wouldn’t use the phrase “amount of students.” There’s no need to measure students by gross tonnage unless you’re planning to corral them all onto a dance floor and want to know if the building might collapse. I think you want to say “number of students” - it works better .</p>

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<p>Going to chime in again really quickly to address some things said by prospective applicants:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If you are planning on applying to ANY top schools, love learning, etc, please do not let the idea of challenge deter you. I highly recommend visiting and quizzing a bunch of rando students about workloads if you’re that concerned. (Certainly, rando students on campus = more reliable than CC.) I learned to study for the first time in my life last year, and as stated classes can be very hard, but you’ll also learn a ton. (For the record, I could get 7-8 hours of sleep a night if I 1. didn’t stay up til 3am talking with people and 2. accepted my B’s.)</p></li>
<li><p>On the other hand, “is this place too difficult for me?” is also a legitimate question to ask yourself when applying. (Or maybe after applying, too.) Challenge is good, but too much of a challenge can just make yourself miserable.</p></li>
<li><p>Examples of hard assignments: oh, I don’t know, math and physics problem sets mainly. I was only in PHY103 but, having no physics background, did not appreciate things like the darn gyroscope problems.</p></li>
<li><p>D’s on tests/quizzes: Ohhh, yeah. I actually got a 3/10 on my first PHY104 quiz, but I still did fine (actually I thought I did fairly well) in the class as a whole.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I find it amusing that in anything Princeton-related at CC non-students/non-alums have to chime in. Not that y’all shouldn’t, but…why does everyone <em>know</em> about grade deflation and stuff? Really. I had no idea it existed til I got to campus…</p>