Girls in CS

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Except for, you know, the sexism and negative assumptions. And don't try telling me that those don't happen...I have personal experience with it, you don't.</p>

<p>knl57, you're welcome to PM me, or reply to me here, if you want to talk to/ask questions of a woman in computer science.

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<p>I think women get a lot of negativity in any "non-woman dominated" job. It's a shame more women don't go into engineering and other science related fields because there are just as many women out there with great minds as there are men. </p>

<p>The question comes down to are women just not interested in these fields or have women been conditioned to think they shouldn't be interested in these fields?</p>

<p>jessiehl: so do you find that women are treated differently/singled out in cs classes?</p>

<p>i don't really mind either way. i'm just curious about your experience with being one of few girls in computer science classes.</p>

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And KidNovelist, I don't mean to be rude, and this doesn't (necessarily) apply to you, but I think that girls make up excuses for quitting when their patience has run out.

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<p>Yes. Our patience with rude behavior and slightly sexist (sometimes overtly sexist) scenarios.</p>

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do you find that women are treated differently/singled out in cs classes?

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I happened to have a discussion with my recently graduated CS D on this topic a few days ago and she stated she felt she wasn't generally treated any differently. Keep in mind that a lot of the grades are quite objective - the programs either work or they have x amount of bugs, and math, physics, and similar courses tend to be largely objective, etc. Most of the male classmates didn't seem condescending or give a sense of 'you're a female and therefore not as good at this as me' but there were a couple from other countries who seemed to have such attitudes but amusingly, they weren't very swift in CS at all. </p>

<p>Given that, being one of the few females can get you noticed by other CS students. Being one of the few females in the class can mean that the prof is more likely to know and remember who you are even in a large CS class but this is generally a good thing. It also can give one a bit of a taste of being in a minority situation which can build character. </p>

<p>I imagine the experience will vary somewhat with the school. The ones my Ds went/go to are very large universities although after the first couple of years especially, the number of CS students isn't great and the classes can be fairly small. After hours and hours and many nights and weekends spent in the lab with fellow CS students they get to know each other somewhat.</p>

<p>Do any of the females that post here have any personal experiences where they were treated differently in engineering classes because they are female? I'm curious because I can't see anyone in my CompE classes being sexist towards females like this.</p>

<p>im not sure if ill be any help. But I am doing a 3-2 engineering program. Right now I am a CS major. Right now I am trying to get this code to work, and its frustrating, so I agree with AuburnMathTutor about us being impatient, me at least, IDK about the whole quitting & excuses opinion though.</p>

<p>I've only taken 2 CS courses, but so far there is like 4 girls in my class and my class has like 15 people, which isnt a bad ratio. The professor treats us pretty much equally as far as I know</p>

<p>In high school, I was a CISCO major (it was a tech h.s) I was the only girl in my major (with 9 guys). At first there was a little disrepect (more immaturity b.c of age perphaps?) but when they saw I was good at it, they were good. The teachers however where a little easier on me.</p>

<p>I always do wonder why girls dont like CS and math and stuff.</p>

<p>Not in the classes, so much. A few friends of mine have encountered a professor every now and then who has a thing against women, but that was really, really rare. Mainly, it's out in the workforce, where you don't get a new batch of people every four years and things can really stagnate.</p>

<p>Hey guys, calm down. I didn't mean anything by what I said. Sheesh. It's not my opinion that fewer girls enroll in CS, and those that do have a higher dropout rate than guys. That is fact. Come up with your own opinions about why it happens.</p>

<p>When I talk to friends of mine who are girls who dropped out of CS, the reasons are those above. When I talk to guys, it's "I was getting my ass kicked". Two different mindsets. And I did say that I think girls are good at it. Lay off, chicks. I swear, you guys set yourself up the strangest pity parties.</p>

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Lay off, chicks.

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<p>Yeah, there ya go.</p>

<p>I think it's more sexist to worry about being politically correct all the time than it is to speak your mind about things when no harm is meant. If you ask me, you're making this discussion about sexism.</p>

<p>I don't believe sexism is a problem....I knew some girls who started cs whose only goal seemed to be to prove to society that they could handle the workload, not realizing that they were being encouraged rather than discriminated against. </p>

<p>Why anyone would have a problem with girls in technical fields is a total mystery to me...I guess there are some weirdos like that though.</p>

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When I talk to friends of mine who are girls who dropped out of CS, the reasons are those above. When I talk to guys, it's "I was getting my ass kicked". Two different mindsets.

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<p>In your experience that may be true, but I don't see the mindset you assign to women as being uniquely feminine. It is pretty human to consider "pointless" or "unnecessary" all of the things you are not good at.</p>

<p>True, and I did admit I was generalizing a bit. You'll notice I did confess at least one of the dudes I know who quit said the same sorts of things. And I know I do, too. You see, it's not the behavior that's specific to girls. All I'm saying is that, for the behavior of dropping out of a CS program, I've noticed what seems to be a significant correlation between giving such and such reasons and being such and such gender.</p>

<p>I see the issue of lack of patience as one of age and maturity. I see college students and new grad hires with the same issue but it's usually due to a new and unfamiliar environment. The development environment may be new (learning to debug in GDB after using Visual Studio) can seem like working with stones and sticks), the code base unfamiliar and the organization daunting. You might be in a group that deals with engineers all over the world and figuring out who knows what, what time of the day you can call them, how long it will take you to get an answer from someone, etc. can drain your patience.</p>

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If you ask me, you're making this discussion about sexism.

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<p>Maybe we have experiences that you do not. I'm truly not trying to jump on you here. I'm just saying that since the sexism isn't directed at you, you have no particular reason to notice it unless you happen to be present for a blatant example by coincidence.</p>

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Do any of the females that post here have any personal experiences where they were treated differently in engineering classes because they are female?

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<p>Not so much "treated differently in engineering classes", but I can certainly cite some examples of sexism that I have witnessed/experienced:</p>

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<li><p>Being told with no evidence that I only got into my (tech) school because I'm female and that I took a hypothetical more-qualified male's spot away (this one has happened many times, though fortunately it generally didn't come from classmates).</p></li>
<li><p>Listening to male engineering students talk about how women in sci/eng are hideously ugly (or, in a common variant, about how it'll probably be easy to get them in bed because they must be desperate since they're ugly). I've also heard a lot of jokes about how it's easier for women to pass classes because they can just sleep with their TAs, or people commenting that an attractive woman with good grades probably earned them by sleeping with TAs.</p></li>
<li><p>Overhearing two physics profs in a lunch line talk about how the school should stop admitting so many women and URMs because they dragged down the quality of the student body (women actually have a higher graduation rate at this school).</p></li>
<li><p>Hearing people refer to what they considered easy classes as "girly".</p></li>
<li><p>Hearing people make jokes about women seeking "MRS degrees".</p></li>
<li><p>I have pretty often, in a variety of contexts, had people assume that I was a lesbian because of my sci/eng interests. Not that there is anything wrong with being a lesbian, but it's not accurate.</p></li>
<li><p>I have had people (not profs or classmates, thankfully) ask me if I'm in sci/eng because I think it will be easier to find a boyfriend in a male-dominated field, or assume that that was my motive.</p></li>
<li><p>In particular, I have seen more femme women be dismissed by classmates or ignored by instructors, and more femme women in sci/eng have told me that people openly express disbelief when they say that they are in sci/eng.</p></li>
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<p>The blatantly sexist people were never a majority, and usually outside my subculture (a friend of mine did a survey at my college several years ago and found that women who lived in some parts of campus had experienced more sexist treatment than women in other parts of campus, and most of the comments that I refer to above that came from students, came from students who weren't in my dorm or social circle), but it gets annoying pretty quickly, you know?</p>

<p>My college was actually, IMO, quite good about this sort of thing, relatively speaking. Pre-college, I remember plenty of instances like people turning around and staring when I walked into the room, opposing academic team coaches chewing out their players for not being able to answer a science or math question faster than a girl, people making casual comments about girls not being cut out for math and science, etc, etc. A friend of mine had her physics teacher tell her that "over [his] dead body" would a girl be the captain of the physics team, and another friend (who went on to be a math major in college) had her school counselor tell her that as a girl there was no point in her taking more math.</p>

<p>I haven't even touched the issue of subconscious bias and the subtle ways in which it affects people. There's plenty of social psych lit on subconscious bias and its implications.</p>

<p>tl;dr</p>

<p>saw this quote- "- Being told with no evidence that I only got into my (tech) school because I'm female and that I took a hypothetical more-qualified male's spot away (this one has happened many times, though fortunately it generally didn't come from classmates)."</p>

<p>I am not saying you are underqualified, but isn't that exactly what affirmative action is? If that is sexism, then you could also call AA racism at the same time.</p>

<p>Wow, some of that stuff is really terrible. I have a hard time imagining how discouraging that sort of treatment can be.</p>

<p>I think the reality is that some of that does happen... less qualified women taking men's places in college or jobs... and it happens with African Americans and other URMs as well. I don't necessarily agree with it, but then again, who cares about what I think? Quotas are a necessary evil in a society where everybody has to be made to feel just as good as everybody else.</p>

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I am not saying you are underqualified, but isn't that exactly what affirmative action is?

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<p>No, that's a popular misconception. Affirmative action can be recruitment efforts targeted toward specific demographic groups, training for admissions officers in recognizing and mitigating their own subconscious bias, giving extra consideration (or other incentives like finaid) to people of certain demographic groups who have already been determined to be qualified, or any number of other things. I'm not, at the moment, arguing for or against any of these, I'm just saying that AA is broader than what you think it is.</p>

<p>When I was doing expert witness work, a contractor looked at a condo tenant's cat, turned to me, and said, "You can play with the kitty if you want to." He also asked me out on a date.</p>

<p>One of my friends was cornered by a bunch of guys and asked whether or not she likes anal sex.</p>

<p>A classmate once told me that before any of the girls had gotten to our comp sci course, one of the guys asked, "Why are those girls in this class anyway? They're just going to become housewives someday."</p>

<p>I had a boss ask me what I was going to do after I got married. I told him that I was going to keep working for him, and that my husband was going to keep working on his stuff. He looked bewildered, and asked, "But... what are you going to DO after you get MARRIED?" I still have no idea what he was getting at, but it still makes me the same sort of "uncomfortable" that I get when I'm being harassed.</p>

<p>Same boss, when I gave him my two weeks' notice, asked, "Do you have another job lined up?" and I replied, "Yes." He asked incredulously, "Wait... in <em>engineering</em>??"</p>

<p>I attended a lecture for my local professional chapter where the speaker talked about his visit to an earthquake engineering task force. He said, "And the team was being led by a woman! (pause for dramatic effect) Yes! A woman!"</p>

<p>This is just off the top of my head. Is it any wonder that sometimes I feel like the pied piper, encouraging women to go into engineering? This is the reality. This stuff happens. It happens too often. It's happening less and less, but to deny that women don't face challenges in these fields belittles the experiences of those of us who have faced this sort of thing and have still stayed with science and engineering.</p>