My daughter just finished her sophomore year of high school and we took a week to visit some colleges in the Northeast. Got some gloomy percentages on acceptance rates at a couple of schools:
At Ithaca, they accept 16-18 per year for MT out of 1,200 to 1,300 applicants, or slightly over 1%
At Syracuse, they accept 23-25 per year for MT out of 800 to 900 applicants, or slightly under 3%
At NYU Tisch, I think it was around 75 accepted out of 3,200 or so applicants, or a little over 2%
If I remember correctly, both schools accept about the same number for just acting/drama, but definitely get fewer applicants. I don’t recall the exact number at Ithaca, but I think Syracuse was 400-500 and Ithaca was like 800? Better percentages, but still not very high in comparison to the schools at large.
And, of course, being a girl, the percentages are lower still for my daughter. Other than NYU, I’m pretty sure my daughter won’t have a problem getting into these schools academically, but even Drama/Acting is a stretch for performing arts.
I think those are the yield numbers not the acceptance numbers. In any case, it’s true that it’s a competitive major but not nearly as competitive as booking work and earning a good living performing after graduation…
Also, the Tisch number is likely the number who auditioned for all studios not just the New Studio for MT.
No school, not even CMU, has 100% yield. Those numbers look like the number who attend vs. the number actually offered admission. Many MT programs have a yield below 50%, and a yield below 25% is not uncommon - although I doubt many programs will willingly admit this. Some programs also inflate their numbers of applicants (gasp!).
Many students audition for 12-14 schools and many receive more than one offer, with some receiving many offers, so logic follows that yields must be well below 100%. If you look back through the “Final Decisions Background” threads from years past you can see many students who pass on these very programs in favor of other schools (and, of course, vice-versa).
Hence, you can double or triple the acceptance rates quoted for many programs to get a feel for the real numbers. However, you still get low numbers.
my mistake on terminology - those are the number that eventually accept the offer of admissions. So, the incoming freshman class the following year has 16-18 at Ithaca, 23-25 at Syracuse, etc.
And, the woman at NYU-Tisch was pretty clear that Steinhardt was a different program altogether and that she did not have numbers for that school, but that it was smaller and more like a conservatory at Steinhardt. (Tisch said that they accept 300-320 or so each year in total for their four primary majors combined, so I just divided the Tisch numbers by 4, or 75-80 each. )
@NewJeffCT - there are 7 primary performance studios at Tisch, plus the design and tech group that goes into tht 300+ number of acceptances. https://tisch.nyu.edu/drama/about/studios (btw- the link has all studios, Classical and Stonestreet are advanced training only - junior/senior) - I don’t know of any studio that has more than 60 kids. But you are correct that Steinhardt is smaller
@NewJeffCT - do not succumb to gloom! Yes, the class/applicant ratios are grim. But you are starting early and as long as your D prepares she has a much better chance of getting into a program that she loves than those numbers indicate, because there truly are lots of wonderful programs out there. Most of the MT applicants on this board applied to 12-18 programs. Many of them received multiple acceptances. Some (like my D) got one “yes” and thanked heaven! This board is filled with people dying to give out good advice that will help you and your D navigate the process. Stay realistic but also stay positive and have faith in your D’s path. Many, many times the students lose out on the “one school” they thought they were destined for only to end up somewhere even better suited to their needs.
How much does academic achievement help in admissions vs. pure talent? I understand it’s different at different schools. Is it at all similar to athletics? Some schools coach has a lot of influence provided student hits minimum numbers. Other schools coach has less.
Also, from a process standpoint, how do you even get in that conversation if they have to have a sense of academic admissions prior to you auditioning? (Do I have that right - if so, how would the MT staff know if they want you?)
I am certainly not an expert, but I have spoken with many MT faculty as a result of volunteering at a large regional college audition for several years. My understanding from those conversations, as well as from conversations with audition coaches and other experts, is that at most, or perhaps almost all, MT programs, artistic assessment will be independent of academic consideration. A few MT programs may consider academics when choosing between two or more applicants of similar type and talent. For most programs, its all about talent from the perspective of artistic admission.
You do have to pass a fairly high academic bar to be able to audition or be considered for admission to MT programs at schools with high academic standards for admission such as NYU, Michigan, UCLA, Illinois Wesleyan, Miami, Tulane, etc. The grand exception is CMU, which famously advertises that students do not have to meet high acadmic standards for admission to their acting and MT programs. Other schools with relatively high academic standards do admit students with academics below their typical standards based on high artistic merit.
NYU is often cited as a program that weighs both academics and artistic merit equally, which is, I think, an exception to the rule.
@EmsDad is correct about NYU weighting academics and audition equally for acceptance. I think that is because NYU kids spend more time than many other BFAs in academic classes - they have a 60/40 split (3 days a week are studio, 2 are academic) and want to make sure kids will be comfortable in that setting as well, as NYU is a challenging school
The percentages look gloomy, but many have already offered great advice when assessing those numbers. Remember, those are numbers of those who actually accepted. So a more accurate measure of acceptance would be to look across multiple schools because by and large over several schools, the pool of talent applying is generally the same. No, not every student applies to every program, but averaging over many programs you are looking at a relatively homogeneous field.
Considering that, consider these fictional numbers. Let’s say 1500 students apply to the same 15 schools, and each school has 15 students who accept an offer into their program. 15x15 = 225 students. Out of a field of 1500 that means 15% (225/1500) got into one of those schools. Now that is greatly simplifying the math and the variables, but I hope it illustrates a more realistic way to view these percentages rather than each school individually. And yes 15% is not an encouraging percentage but it’s a lot less gloomy 2% or 3%.
The bottom line is every student and their family needs to enter this process with their eyes wide open. It is extremely competitive, especially for the programs considered “elite” or “top tier.” Apply liberally to many schools including safe schools, schools that do not require an audition, and both highly competitive and less competitive programs. Read the stories of past classes (the Final Decisions threads often reveal many stories with valuable real life experiences).
Most audition coaches and professionals will tell you that after an actor graduates it is their talent that the casting directors see, not the school. Sure, a few of those very elite program may open a few more doors to get into the audition room, but once in that room, it’s the actor on the boards not the school on the paper that lands the job.
Here are some posts from past years estimating the size of the audition pool, etc. My conclusion from doing an analysis similar to what @UMiamiMTDad posted above is that the overall admission rate may be on the order of 20-30% for the top 60 or so programs.
Some programs certainly have high yields and very low percentages, but I think after the top 10 or so the numbers grow to somewhat more reasonable percentages.
Looking at the past Final Decisions Background threads and similar threads about rejections, it is very common to receive zero acceptances from the 10-20 most popular programs. It is really a good idea to balance your list carefully across a spectrum of schools and not weight your list too heavily with the usual suspects.
@EmsDad I know you were a part of the Moonifeds parents participation where you were mingling with colleges, coaches and other parents and I realize you think it was very valuable. But do you think there is any advantage in getting to spend time with the college auditors if it is all about the talent at the audition?
@Notmath1 - I think its great to get the opportunity to hear directly from college faculty, especially when they describe how they view their programs and run their auditions. In an arena rife with rumor and speculation, its great to be able to get facts straight from the source, as well as get a feel for the personalities and approaches involved. I had a lot of questions before my d started the audition process, so I took advantage of every opportunity that I could to find out more about how things really work in the college theatre world. I was fortunate that my d’s high school hosts a large regional college audition each year and these auditions are actually run entirely by parent volunteers from the school. This gave me a wonderful opportunity over four years to meet and chat with many college faculty members, as well as see hundreds of auditions and witness the callback process several times over.
Somewhat ironically, when my d attended Moonifieds, I didn’t actually get a chance to attend the parent panel or talk to any college faculty due to pressing work demands that kept me glued to my phone and computer. I did accompany my d when she went to the college fair session, but she did all the talking (I never did any talking at events like these, my d wanted to do all the talking herself). I have subsequently been a part of the parent panel, so I can heartily recommend it from that experience.
I don’t think that having a pretty good idea about the ins-and-outs of the process gave my d a large advantage in the audition room, but I think d was not as nervous as she might have been had we known less going into the process, and I think that was at least a little bit of an advantage for her. We were able to navigate the process without any major hiccups, panics, or disasters, and that was certainly advantageous for my mental health. There were also a couple of programs that we added to d’s list based on being able to meet the faculty, and she also dropped a couple of programs on the same basis.
@EmsDad - yes, it was great to talk directly to people involved with the program at the school. We also lucked out at Ithaca and were the only one there that day for their Performing Arts presentation, and in the middle of the presentation, the woman that heads the entire department came in and relayed several stories to us about previous students and shows at the school - she had a really dynamic personality that made me want to go to Ithaca. (I think her name was Catherine or Katherine, I had meant to look her up on the school website) But, we certainly felt lucky afterwards that the three of us (my daughter, my wife and me) got not only the standard presentation, but also a drop in visit from the Dept Head.
I would add that regional draw may also help with an offer. For example, my S (from NY) was accepted to IWU with the best merit package out of all his offers. His academics were good, but certainly not NYU caliber. When we toured, many of the students auditioning were from Illinois or west coast, so it’s possible that besides his audition, offering some regional diversity may have helped with the overall caliber of the acceptance/offer.
thanks @"#booknerdmom" - a girl from my daughter’s high school in Connecticut is currently at Univ of Michigan and the young woman thinks that her being mixed race helped her get into UM (my daughter is also mixed) because Asians are typically under-represented in Performing Arts compared to other fields/majors.
FWIW, I can tell you with reasonable certainty that Ithaca accepted about 28 for their 16-18 musical theatre slots.
So while they may accept a bit more than the class size, it is not much at the absolute top programs. Maybe 10-15 more than class size except maybe at Michigan and CMU - where they get just about every one. So even at 28, for example, Ithaca’s acceptance rate is still 2-3%.
My S went through the process last year.
It is a truly whirlwind process. I was surprised by many things - not the least of which was how little crossover there was between acceptances at “top” schools. If you get into more than one, it is a blessing.
I do think there are some schools that have much lower yields. But it is simply becoming more and more competitive.
This board is filled with people dying to give out good advice that will help you and your D navigate the process. Stay realistic but also stay positive and have faith in your D’s path. Many, many times the students lose out on the “one school” they thought they were destined for only to end up somewhere even better suited to their needs.