<p>Lazykid, just because you met some people who scoff at a Cornell degree doesn’t mean it’s worthless. The majority of the people you meet who have some familiarity with colleges will understand the value of successfully going through cornell and will praise you for it. My guidance counselor said “Holy sh **” a few times when I told her I got into the engineering (and my school doesn’t suck, 2 of my classmates got into harvard, 1 to williams and 1 to U Chicago). </p>
<p>And first of all- Cornell doesn’t look at writing as you guys should probably know. So you can’t talk about test scores and Cornell out of 2400.</p>
<p>Yes, it may not be to you and a few others, but for a lot of the kids here, the image and reputation of their alma mater is near the top of their “important” list. Frankly, a lot of students wouldn’t even have applied to Cornell if it wasn’t an Ivy; that’s just the truth whether you think it’s superficial or not. I highly highly doubt you could find many people who actually value educational quality over the name on their diploma. Why do you think students complain that they didn’t get into HYP? Why do you think students try to take shortcuts and the easiest classes - in the end, all they want is the name on that diploma.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>MIT giving free classes is a lesser version of Harvard Extension School - both of which are vastly different than cc transfers coming in here and getting an actual degree (the same freshman get). Are you really comparing the two? Also, I would venture and say that you probably don’t know the collective opinion of MIT students/alums on the issue entirely. Just because CC MIT forum hasn’t exploded with anger doesn’t mean they don’t care.</p>
<p>Also. As a 5 year poster with over 6800 posts, it’s kind of ironic that you tell us to “get a life”. Refer back to OldMoney’s post on page 1. Alums keep defending Cornell’s irrational admissions practices by saying the whole “fit” argument and whatnot…yet as mentioned, the stats of graduating students prove that this so-called “fit” is a load of bs.
Whether you like it or not, rankings and selectivity DO matter because they affect the opinions of top prospective students. As superficial as it may seem, top students are not going to be attracted to Cornell as much if it keeps going down in those criteria, which will have a cyclical effect on future rankings and future students. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>cortana, don’t tell me you actually believe that. Tell me. Do you think they hire secretaries to highlight with black markers all the writing scores of each applicant so the admissions committee doesn’t accidentally see them? Or do you think they cover the writing score with their hand when reviewing their app? Honestly, would any normal, subjective person in this earth REALLY view a guy with a 500 writing and a guy with a 800 writing the same ceteris parabis? The answer is probably no. They may not consider it that important, but that doesn’t mean they don’t look at it at all.</p>
<p>Also, what does talking about SAT scores on a 1600 vs a 2400 scale have to do with what we’re arguing? You’re a freshman so may not realize yet, but when you come here and see students in your classes that were in the bottom quartile of your high school class, you’ll know. All the hard work you put in for the past 4 years means nothing when you bump into a guy in your class who literally failed high school but transferred in after “shaping up”. Second chances should not be given that easily is what we’re saying.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>We’re not just bashing Cornell’s high acceptance rate. They consistently accept low GPA/SAT scorers WHILE rejecting higher stats people saying it’s all about “fit”, and yet they accept hordes of these cc transfers and produce graduating students WEAKER than those of their peers. Also, are you REALLY telling me that you don’t care if Cornell’s acceptance rate is 50% or not? If you don’t, why not make it a 100%? Why not give everyone a Cornell degree if it’s all about educating? If you don’t see what the problem is, I don’t know what to tell you.</p>
<p>Do you think people in real life think, “hmm, you went to Cornell, the admittance rate is 18.5%, and he went to Penn, the admittance rate is 16.75%, ahh, lets not forget all of those transfers students at Cornell, so that guy from Penn must be a much better person.” </p>
<p>Sheesh, get a life.</p>
<p>Cornell will continue to admit best students for each of its schools, employers know that, graduate schools know that, and if you don’t know that, then I don’t know what to tell you.</p>
<p>It’s naive to think branding doesn’t matter. Harvard undergraduate education is nothing special yet it is one of the most selective colleges to get into. And that has to do with the Harvard brand. At the undergrad level especially, a college is measured not only by the quality of education it provides but by the quality of students it has. Colleges have a lot of incentive to be selective. Despite colleges complaining about US News, they still submit data every year to the magazine. They have the option to not be included in the rankings but they know it will absolutely cripple their application season.</p>
<p>Admitting students based on “fit” is absurd. According to statistics, something like 60-75% of college students will change majors. And Cornell makes it easy to internally transfer. It’s silly to admit a student just because he was able to write a good essay for Plant Science or Communications. Chances are, two years down the line, he’ll be going into law/business/medicine like the rest of the Ivy League kids.</p>
<p>The irony about oldfort’s *****ing is that her daughter went into banking, probably the most prestige conscious field out there (even more so than medicine or law). Her own daughter has benefited from the image of Cornell generated by past Cornell students and by successful students like lazykid and I and here she is whining about how elitist we all are. </p>
<p>Education is a two-way street. You need good professors and good resources. But, you also need students who are intelligent enough to excel. So, yes, the quality of education is partially determined by a school’s selectivity.</p>
<p>My daughter got an excellent education from Cornell. I do not believe transfer students have tarnished Cornell’s image. Diversity of student body and contract schools have added value to Cornell. My daughter has benefited greatly from all of that. BUT do not be mistaken that my daughter, or any Cornellians, has benefited from the image generated by students like you.</p>
<p>But even at schools like MIT and caltech, you will find some pretty ‘dumb’ kids as in all schools, but are you just saying Cornell has a lot more?</p>
<p>Graduation rates of freshmen - 92%
Graduation rates of external transfers - 91%</p>
<p>If community college transfers were as dumb as some of you all make it out, there is no way the two graduation rates would be this close. In addition, the contract schools (AG + ILR) actually have a higher graduation rate for transfers then for freshmen. </p>
<p>To conclude, by using raw data and not pointless anecdotal evidence it can be shown that external transfers are not hurting Cornell in terms of retention. Are some of these transfers perceived as dumber? Perhaps. But the reality is, even if they are dumber, they somehow are graduating at the same rates. </p>
<p>Undeniably URM’s do graduate at lower rates. Interestingly, transfer URM’s have the same graduation rates of transfer Asians. The difference in rates is negligible and is seen at most selective schools. </p>
<ol>
<li>There should NOT be more emphasis on test scores as a junior transfer. </li>
</ol>
<p>
Collegeboard website</p>
<p>Why should Cornell care about the score you got on a college readiness exam if you have already shown that you’re doing fantastic in college? You could argue that community college classes might be easier and so not a true indicator of college readiness for a school like Cornell and this is a good point. However, Cornell can refuse to accept credit for classes they deem not rigorous or comparable to a Cornell class, so this argument is moot.</p>
<p>Employers aren’t going to know or care. But, high schoolers know those statistics. US News knows those statistics. Even a couple of % on acceptance rate can change shift the rank up or down a couple of spots (heck, look at what WashU undergrad has been able to do in just 20 years). Cornell isn’t that close to getting into the top 10 in ranking but it’s not very far from the likes of Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Emory, etc. It could easily be outside of the top 20. And, top applicants care about stuff like that. Once it starts losing the cross admit-battle, the quality of academics will slip. And, let’s face it, with its grade deflation, crappy location, horrible weather, and high suicide rate (tongue-in-cheek), Cornell attracts many applicants solely based on its prestige and its inclusion in the Ivy League. Those who have attend the college (like me) know that there is plenty to love about Cornell. But, for many top applicants who aren’t familiar with the school, its branding is its biggest asset.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You’re joking, right? Ask Columbia students what they think of Barnard girls calling themselves “Columbia students.” Ask Harvard students what they think of Harvard extension students calling their degree a “Harvard degree.” Everyone who has worked their butt off to earn their degree wants to protect the integrity of that degree. </p>
<p>MIT is the other private land grant university in the US. I don’t see MIT admitting hordes of CC transfers from MA. Not fulfilling its land grant mission, tsk, tsk, tsk.</p>
<p>I think you should run Cornell’s admissions, seriously. Couldn’t have summarized the solutions to the problems associated with the current system any better.</p>
<p>It is important to note that some schools, such as Duke, Penn, Stanford, and Wash U, have risen dramatically in rankings and reputation last couple of decades, largely due to clever admissions policies and marketing their stuff well to the students, employers, and so on. I am sure Cornell can do a lot better, and Cornell deserves better.</p>
<p>Actually, yes. The best students at Cornell can measure up with anyone. In fact, the smartest person I know I met at Cornell (and keep in mind, I attend a top med school where 70% of my class came from a top 20 college). But, unfortunately, Cornell just has way too many kids who struggle (and then whine about the non-existent grade deflation). That makes the academic environment depressing. I found the academics at Cornell to be wonderful and challenging. But, too many students whine about how it’s unfair and stressful and cutthroat. Nope. It’s because you’re not cut out for Cornell.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Graduation rates lol Come on, that’s not a sensitive measure of achievement. You get a 2.0, you graduate. It’s tremendously hard to get a D or F at Cornell. gomestar, a poster who worked in admissions at Cornell and was a transfer himself, even said that statistics show transfers do worse than regular admits (often experiencing an average of a full grade point drop in GPA after going to Cornell). </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Because GPA’s are not standardized. Cornell has no idea if Podunk Community College in California is rigorous. And most community colleges are not. That’s why I advocate more transfers from colleges we know (like BU or NYU), not Southwest Airlines Community College. SAT scores are standardized. If a person tells me they scored a 2300 on the SAT, I know they’re not a dumbass. If a person tells me they have a 3.8 at a community college, I’m still not sure. </p>
<p>URM’s and affirmative action, I won’t get into. That’s a powder keg. I’m a proponent of affirmative action. But, just so you know, when the academics get difficult, that’s when you see the weaker students struggle. At top colleges, the grade inflation masks the discrepancy in achievement. It is tremendously hard to flunk out of a top college. But, in colleges where there is no hand-holding (like UC Berkeley), the discrepancy in graduation rates between URMs and ORM’s is remarkable. In med school (where affirmative action is as robust if not more than in college admissions), URM’s flunk out at 4-5x the rate of ORM’s (that’s from the AAMC’s own study).</p>
Precisely, so grow up. Are you still in high school? </p>
<p>My daughter competed with kids from HYPSM to get her job. Those banks didn’t pass her over because of Cornell’s bad image. She got multiple offers because of her maturity and her ability to think critically.</p>
This is interesting. Do you have these statistics? Anyone can say anything at college confidential. I used graduation rates because it’s data I can actually show you. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Unfortunately, due to prep available it doesn’t mean anything either. I took the SAT my first and only time and got a 2100 without any prep. The valedictorian of the school I went to I got a 2040 the first time. Fortunately for him, he had the resources available and prepped for a few months and upped it to a 2340. What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. There have been tons of studies showing a positive correlation between SAT scores and socioeconomic status*. Come on now. $10 you’re a middle aged white guy coming from a middle class family. I also bet you made above a 2200 on the SAT. Don’t get me wrong, I agree on everything you’ve been saying, but you shouldn’t assume so easily that community colleges are garbage.</p>
<p>If you had to take the SAT the minute you got into 9th grade (because really the SAT is about 9th grade material anyway) and there was no prep available I would agree with you 100%. But this is not the case.</p>
<ul>
<li>To partially refute myself, smarter people usually make more money and pass those genes onto their offspring, so it’s not really surprising. It’s a reality in any case though.</li>
</ul>
<p>With due respect, I think you should refrain from discounting others’ opinions. My opinion as well as norcalguy’s opinion have been shaped firmly after actually spending several years on Cornell campus. </p>
<p>If I am not mistaken, you are a parent who has a daughter from Cornell. I am sure you would agree that you haven’t taken classes at Cornell, nor have you had chances to interact with the wide range of student body at Cornell on daily basis. I know what you are trying to say is politically correct, but let’s face it, truth hurts. </p>
<p>Also regarding your speculation about my taste for lifestyle - you guessed wrong. I actually hate living in a large house, and I speak that out of my experience. Nor do I care about vacations at all. I will grant you that I would like to drive some nice cars, such as Porsche 911.</p>
<p>I understand. But, I’m just saying that graduation is just a bare minimum. At top colleges, it’s practically impossible to flunk out. For example, in a class that’s curved to a A-, I would have to be 3 std. dev below the mean to flunk that class. Grade inflation at top colleges make it almost impossible to flunk out. You can try PMing gomestar. I’m sure he won’t quite agree with what I have to say but he’s a cool dude (transferred from Syracuse).</p>
<p>I agree with you on SAT scores. They’re not perfect. And I agree that they should be far less important for transfers than they are for freshman admits. BUT WHY NOT AT LEAST HAVE THAT DATA ON HAND? It’s just more info on which to make an admissions decision. And it’s the only standardized test potentially in the transfer’s file. Why not have it available? And when I say SAT scores should be considered, I’m not talking about 2100 vs. 2300. I’m talking about not admitting people who scored a 1500 (M+V+W) in HS. Yes, there are such transfers who are hiding those scores. I’m sorry, but if your SAT score from HS was below the 1700, you have no business being at Cornell. Like I said, I was a Cornell student and my SAT score was 1290 (out of 1600)…in the eighth grade.</p>
<p>LazyKid, I think oldfort has it out for you because you guys disagree acrimoniously on law school admissions.</p>
<p>You may think that my views or norcalguy’s opinions on this issue are wrong to possess. I confidently can say that a lot of my classmates from Cornell had negative sentiments towards questionable and controversial admissions policy at Cornell. Also, I found that a good number of my classmates (secretly) loathed at the apparent lack of intellect that some of those transfer students, alongside some others (athletes or URM) displayed. I and norcalguy happen to be discussing this topic without reservation, yet I promise you there are far more Cornell students and alums who happen to think likewise.</p>
<p>I know why I came on this thread and why I am still on CC. I cam here to wish RDers luck, and I have another daughter entering Cornell, so I am sticking around here for a little while. Even my younger one is leaving SAT discussion behind.</p>
<p>This kind of a forum is one of the few ways to express these opinions. Lazykid and I are just expressing our opinions candidly because we can. We’re not jerks in real life. I don’t talk about acceptance rates with my classmates. But, this is what I truly believe. And, when the topic has come up with close friends from Cornell, it’s what a lot of them believe as well. Yes, it’s not PC. Yes, it makes us sound elitist. But, perception matters in life. I love Cornell. When I become a doc with my own office, I will proudly display my Cornell diploma alongside my medical school diploma and my medical license. But, I want to protect the integrity of that degree.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree with you at all. It’s ridiculous how some CC students are considering Cornell a safety. I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous. Community college students should not be considering an Ivy League institution a safety. </p>
<p>I also agree with the SAT score thing. Everyone should submit it just so it can be used for statistics. However, its weight in the application should be marginal at most (for junior transfers at least). Also with your SAT score and eighth grade and all that, you’d be surprised but for most people (assuming they do not prep), your SAT score can be predicted as early as seventh grade, depending on the school you went to and background. </p>
<p>Overall I agree with you. I’m applying to Cornell myself and consider it a high reach even though I am one of the generic community college applicants with a 4.0. No student, ESPECIALLY community college students should feel confident that they will get into Cornell if their high school record is not Cornell level.</p>
<p>Cornell should also institute some kind of transfer readiness exam to the accepted community college students. If they don’t pass they should be dealt with in some way.</p>
<hr>
<p>If I am rejected from Cornell I want it to be because they feel as if I would not succeed at Cornell. If that’s the case, I respect that. They shouldn’t feel pressured to accept a student because of URM status, or being a community college student or whatever. If accepted at Cornell, it should be because they feel as if I can succeed. Students need to go to schools where they can succeed, not where the prestige lies.</p>