<p>This forum is bagging on transfers so much it’s kinda sad.</p>
<p>there is just something about transfers… when you hear someone is a transfer you lose some academic respect for them. in my experience most transfers couldn’t get into college in the beginning and need a few more years of high school level work to get acquainted…</p>
<p>Seriously? No, I mean, seriously? I’m really hoping this is just some weak inside joke. Get the **** over yourselves. Just because you got into college as a freshmen does not mean that you’re weakass GPA deserves more respect than anyone else’s. Transfer students aren’t expected to compete as highly as third year Cal students (mostly because they might still be adjusting to Berkeley’s lifestyle), but that doesn’t mean they don’t do as well in classes. There’s a difference.</p>
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<p>On the note of transfer admits being complete rejects in HS, I know of a lot of transfers who got into the midtier UCs (I, D, SB) out of HS but decided to go to a CC for two years to save a ****load of money and to have a good shot at UCBerkeley/UCLA/USC.</p>
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I am not sure that is entirely possible. Some school districts (like mine) mandated that you had to take the required history courses at a high school level, and not at a CC. Also some CCs won’t let HS students take any of their courses until they’re done with your sophomore year.</p>
<p>lol the funny thing is i bet most transfers will end up with higher GPAs than most 4-year admits will</p>
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<p>For the record, I have nothing against transfer students in principle, and indeed, I’ve often toyed with the idea that the entire Berkeley undergrad program should be converted into a transfer program where every student would have transferred from another school, whether it be a community college, CalState, another UC, or a school entirely separate from the California public university system. </p>
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<p>But that’s precisely the problem - they probably won’t flunk out, for reasons I explain below. </p>
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<p>Precisely, and that to me is the crux of the problem. Harshly graded weeder courses tend to be concentrated within the lower division, and transfer students are allowed to skip over some, and in certain cases, all of them. </p>
<p>What that effectively entails is that transfer students are receiving special treatment. Now, to be fair, they didn’t ask for special treatment, but that doesn’t obviate the fact that they are getting it. Plenty of freshman admits would like to avoid the harsh lower-division weeders, and they are not permitted to do so. What’s fair is fair: if the freshman admits are forced to undergo the weeders, then so should the transfer students. {Or, my preferred strategy should be invoked, in which nobody is weeded.} I can think of quite a few Berkeley freshman-admits whose cumulative GPA’s would be substantially higher if they didn’t have to count their lower-division weeder course grades. Heck, some of them were even placed on academic probation because of those weeders. </p>
<p>One counterargument would be that community college students themselves have to undergo a ‘weeding process’ via earning sufficiently high grades at their cc to be admitted to Berkeley. Yet I’m afraid that this is not a comparable process because that’s no different from the fact that freshman-admits had to work hard in high school to be admitted to Berkeley. Community colleges are open-admission, meaning that all you have to do is graduate from high school, even with terrible grades, and still be allowed to enter community college. Hence, both groups have to undergo a competitive admissions process at some point in their lives, which makes the comparison a wash.</p>
<p>Another counterargument is that if cc transfers have to take the Berkeley lower-division weeders, then Berkeley freshman admits should be similarly forced to take 2 years of cc coursework (in addition to their regular Berkeley coursework). This argument is spurious for the simple reason that the transfer students are joining Berkeley, but Berkeley students are not joining the community college. Hence, those transfer students should have to abide by the same rules that the existing Berkeley students are forced to undergo, for otherwise they truly are enjoying special treatment. </p>
<p>To be fair, it would obviously be logistically difficult to force all cc transfers to actually take the entire lower-division weeder course sequence for the major they are entering. As an alternative, one could simply have them pass the final exams of those particular weeder courses. Keep in mind that such coursework usually consists of broad-based topics (i.e. calculus, general chemistry, general physics) that the transfer student should have learned if they want to enter the corresponding major. If they cannot earn a passing grade on those exams, then they should not be allowed to skip over those courses. Why should anybody be allowed to skip coursework for which they are unable to pass the final exam? {Keep in mind that I’m not asking that they receive an A, I’m just asking them to pass.} </p>
<p>But again, what’s fair is fair. If the freshman admits have to be weeded, then the transfer students should be weeded too.</p>
<p>While I expect that many transfer students will object to this proposal, logically speaking, they should actually embrace it. After all, if the transfer students truly are as qualified as they say, then they will have no problem in passing those weeder finals. The only logical reason I can foresee that they would object is that they suspect that they wouldn’t pass, which would only serve to validate everybody’s suspicions that they demand special treatment.</p>
<p>Just to point out a fact, it is mainly the engineering/science/social science majors that actually have weeders. Most of the humanities have very few lower division requirements (and in certain cases no lower div requirements) many of which have to be taken at Berkeley. For example, English majors (who if I recall correctly form a plurality of transfers) most of the time can only fill one or two of their four lower division requirements and end up going through the lower division sequence here anyways.</p>
<p>@sakky
Students transferring their o-chem classes have to pass the ACS exam to transfer it.</p>
<p>I don’t get the big deal. Just let them in the school. If they do well they deserve to be there and if they don’t who cares. Just do your own thing. Berkeley is a public school just like all the UCs. It isn’t some exclusive private school where only the bright freshy admits get to study. </p>
<p>I don’t get this harder and easier between Berkeley and CC comes from. It varies between community colleges. At least at the UC’s they have a curve in the classrooms. At the CC it is get an A average on all your exams or you don’t get your A. So it is really not that easy to do well. Well I’m speaking from a science/math/engineering major point of view. The social science/gen ed stuff is cake tho.</p>
<p>At the end of the day. Who cares. Get your education and move on. People feel that they have to have a sense of superiority to feel better about themselves. Get over your egos seriously.</p>
<p>The current UC transfer program is not based on merit or moral ground, it’s a loophole. CC is a wonderful vehicle for providing cheap and accessible post secondary education for the masses. It’s not, as it’s structured now, suitable for qualifying admissions to the top UC campuses. The academic rigor and standard are simply too low to be fair and reliable.</p>
<p>For that “4.0 Cuesta COMMUNITY COLLEGE –> 3.8 UCB” fellow, congratulations on your success at UCB and perhaps at HKS. But I want you to think about the many potentially “4.0 XYZ High School –> 3.8 UCB” students who are not afforded that chance becasue the spots are taken by a bunch of “3.0 ABC High School –> 3.5 DEF COMMUNITY COLLEGE –> 2.8 UCB” transfers.</p>
<p>Well, easy way to see this:</p>
<p>I went to a competitive high school that had community college across the street. Most kids who were making 3.0s in HS were still getting 4.0 at that CC. That CC is also ranked consistently one of the top in the nation…
[a 3.6 at that CC was guaranteed transfer to SD, so a 4.0 should be good for Berkeley]</p>
<p>Do I think I could have gotten a 4.0 in CC without much effort? Yes
(for the 2 years I took concurrent at my CC, I did get a 4.0)
Would I have a higher GPA etc by transferring to UCB directly? Yes
Would I have saved money and all sorts of stress by transferring? Yes
Did I? No</p>
<p>No point hating on people who made better choices in life. :S</p>
<p>Also, we have to think about some high school kids who get in. For one, many kids who come from competitive high schools/private schools have a much better background. But there are also less competitive high schools which send their top 2 students but they’re not as academically prepared. Then there are kids who transfer to easier high schools to become valedictorians. So the 4-year track isn’t as uniform as some would like to think.</p>
<p>[03.12.2003</a> - The transfer-student experience](<a href=“http://berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2003/03/12_.shtml]03.12.2003”>03.12.2003 - The transfer-student experience)
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<p>well given that they come in with 4.0 GPAs… I’m not surprised their avg gpa is higher</p>
<p>I just think that transferring to a school should be harder than getting in as a freshman</p>
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<p>I am pretty sure the article was referring to their UC GPA’s as opposed to their overall GPAs.</p>
<p>@iTransfer: Please. Yes, UC Berkeley is a public school. But the reason why most people come here is prestige. Oh, they come here for good (i.e., ostensibly better than the rest of the public) education? Then why isn’t letting those in who lack talent an issue?
Also curving has nothing to do with difficulty. If CC is so hard why not make them take the final exams AND require them to get A’s or B’s?
Also, just saying, “you guys are too cocky” does not invalidate the fact that it’s unfair that under-qualified people come here to get a prestigious degree that they don’t deserve, which is nothing more than deception for employers.
I actually haven’t had much personal experience with transfers, but I just wanted to point out how hollow your arguments are 
@cavilier: Yeah, there are under-qualified freshmen too. That’s what this thread was originally about. Some people in my classes…I can’t understand it!</p>
<p>“Ostensibly better than rest of the public” “Prestigious degree they don’t deserve”. Again being cocky. Feeling superior than everyone else. I guess it is apart of human nature to put other people down and just to make you feel better about yourself. I hate people with attitude like this. I’m out of this forum. Good thing I rejected Berkeley when I got their acceptance letter. I wouldn’t want classmates like you guys anyways. Although I would have loved to have gone to your school just to show you that transfers do deserve to be there.</p>
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<p>But Berkeley does not have to be an exclusive private school to be a special, premier State U. Both Cambridge and Oxford, like UC Berkeley, are government-funded institutions yet are extremely selective and enjoy a reputation which is exclusive. I even think that Cambridge sounds more “exclusive” than Yale or Stanford is.</p>
<p>I love you guys so, so much.*</p>
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<p>*This may be the most honest sentence I have ever posted on CC.</p>
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<p>And that points to a different problem: why exactly do certain majors engage in weeding, but not others? Either everybody should be weeded, or nobody should, regardless of major. But, IMO, that’s a separate issue from that of transfer students. </p>
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<p>That’s an improvement, I would agree. But why not implement such a requirement for all such weeders then, not just OChem? </p>
<p>More importantly, why aren’t freshman admits allowed to take that same ACS exam (and possibly take OChem at a community college) in order to skip having to take OChem at Berkeley? Why is this an option only for transfer students? </p>
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<p>Well, whether we like it or not, admissions to Berkeley (or almost every top public school) is competitive. None of them run open admissions. Plenty of applicants - even many CC transfer applicants - who apply to Berkeley will not be admitted. For example, if I get straight C’s at a community college, I can’t simply demand to be admitted as a transfer student to Berkeley, under the guise that perhaps I might do well there. They will reject me in favor of transfer applicants who had better grades. </p>
<p>The issue, again, is a matter of fairness. I don’t have any problem, in principle, with transfer admits, as long as they’re not accorded special treatment. But that is, in effect, what is happening now. Plenty of freshman admits would prefer not to have to take the lower division weeders that the transfer students are allowed to skip. We therefore have a legitimate grievance on our hands.</p>
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<p>I agree that there’s little to be gained by blaming individual people. However, that is not to say that we shouldn’t press for reform of the system itself. </p>
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<p>It is actually precisely that sort of misleading statistic that only serves to obfuscate the issue while infuriating those who attempt to study it. I don’t doubt that transfer students have higher overall Berkeley GPA’s than do the freshman admits for the simple reason that they were allowed to skip over many of the lower-division weeders. A fair comparison would be to examine the GPA’s of the same courses that transfer students and freshman admits took together, yet that’s precisely what Padilla and the other Berkeley administrators won’t provide, and the fact that they won’t provide that information only increases the suspicions that they’re trying to hide something. I can think of freshman admits who would have had far higher GPA’s if they didn’t have to count their weeder grades. </p>
<p>Again, at the end of the day, I have no problem with transfer admits, as long as they don’t receive special treatment. The fact that they are receiving such treatment, however unwittingly, is the problem. They should have to undergo the same weeder experience that the other students did. Why not? What’s fair is fair.</p>
<p>If the transfer students refuse my idea because they don’t think they could actually pass the Berkeley weeders, then that only confirms the suspicions that they are indeed receiving special treatment.</p>