Good Public Universities versus Expensive Private Universities

<p>I continue to be amazed at the interest on CC for good but not outstanding large private universities, some of which are among the most expensive in the country and many of which offer less than solid financial aid. Conversely, I am amazed by the lack of interest in and discussion around the very good in-state schools, some of which have excellent honors programs and all of which offer compelling economics. I really don't get it.</p>

<p>Why this seeming flight to expensive private schools, when good in-state schools are as good (sometimes better) academically and always, always a better deal financially? Is it that some of our parents are so wealthy it doesn't matter? Why are they so willing to pay such a price premium for essentially the same quality of education? Is it just an example of conspicuous consumption? Or have these schools marketed themselves so well, that they convinced us they are, in fact, a better deal? Or is it the segment on CC that is wholly price insensitive?</p>

<p>I don't want to get into naming specific schools, let's just say for argument sake, there are a couple in Washington DC, a couple in Boston, one in New York and one in Southern California.</p>

<p>This is not a complete answer to the interesting question you are posing, but I am sure for some students the idea of going to a public university, which is often tens of thousands of students, is too much for them. Some students need smaller classes, personable professors, etc. even if the college is more expensive and less academically qualified, they are happier in a smaller environment. Also, public universities (the in-state ones, which must be the ones you are referring to, as out-of-state tuition is comparable to that of private schools) can to some be an extension of high school, with similar people and environment, something many students strive to escape.</p>

<p>Just some thoughts.</p>

<p>Think about it this way (this is how it's been explained to me) Many times people end up getting more "ahead" in their fields simply from going to a private university than a large state school with certain great programs. </p>

<p>I'll give you a great example: The University of Arizona versus Dartmouth. Pretty much anyone can get into U of A, and it has a pretty good (not great) linguistics department. However, only the best of the best get into Dartmouth and thus, its linguistics department as well. Its linguistics department probably isn't all that great. The fact that one got into Dartmouth is amazing, and the sheer prestige of Dartmouth obviously helps. </p>

<p>Also, we can't forget about applying to state schools OOS. For example, using the linguistics thing again, UCLA's linguistics department is amazing, but I know that most likely, I will not get that much aid simply by being an OOS resident. Which is worse: 25k plus no aid or 35k plus aid? Honestly, if I were a California resident, I'm probably better off just going to UCLA or UC Berkeley, but since I come from Arizona, which doesn't have the greatest colleges, I might as well apply to some of the more prestigious and costly universities.</p>

<p>Thanks smiles,</p>

<p>Very helpful, especially your point of not wanting a continuation of high school. On the size thing. I can get the argument for a LAC or a small university, but some of these schools I am alluding are quite large.</p>

<p>atrophicwhisper, </p>

<p>Your example rings close to home. I am interested in linguistics and am going to Dartmouth in the fall!! Even though I know Dartmouth doen't have the best linguistics program, I am taking a bet that the overall quality of the education I'll get there will be worth the premium my parents pay over UMass Amherst (which I think has an excellent linguistics program).</p>

<p>Good luck with OOS schools. Arizona sounds pretty appealing and Tuscon has great weather. Does Arizona have an Honors Program?</p>

<p>One might argue that the state schools are not always top caliber.</p>

<p>Of course, I think the real issue is much more than that. In most states there is a state university, and that's about it. Your classmates go there, there really isn't much of a standard for admission, and many are in terrible places. It doesn't feel like anything new or worthwhile. It's, to a high school senior, like going from middle school to high school all over again. It's just the next step in a preordained process where all things that have happened for the past twelve years will happen for another four. One's achievements seem to have meant nothing, indeed it seems that nothing at all has changed. You don't escape from the things you hated about high school, nor the people, nor the state. For all the praise it gets, I'd argue many people, especially here, want nothing to do with that experience again. But psychologically, a state university is neigh forced(by circumstance) and seems like nothing more than another upgrade to "school."</p>

<p>Now, that may well be entirely untrue. It likely is. But that doesn't change the feelings related to it.</p>

<p>To say nothing, of course, of the sense of superiority inherit from going to a more selective university. Again, I don't mean that as a matter of fact, but a matter of feeling. Still, I'd wager that outside of all the things claimed about the top schools, there is a sense of superiority/worthiness that comes with it. Only 8% of people might get into Harvard. Does that mean that the other 92% who applied(and the billions who didn't) are inferior? Of course not. But people feel special when those things happen. Some people feel good about being different but part of some crowd. It moves entire "sub-cultures" that are very dominant in the college applying age group. </p>

<p>Now that's not to say the superiority is egotistic as a whole, and in some people it's, in fact, the opposite. There is a right of passage in their town/family/culture/whathaveyou with college admission. The more selective, the better a person you are. Sometimes it could be entirely personal. Many people who do aspire to top schools sacrifice a good deal and are ridiculed from all sides and merely want to know it was worth it. To go to the(generally) not nearly as selective state school that one's tormentors also will attend just seems ethically wrong.(Or so I feel.)</p>

<p>Of course, there is the fact that I mentioned at the beginning. Not all public schools are good. And in many states you hardly have a choice at all. University of North Dakota, Rutgers, USC(the south eastern one!) are not all schools people might aspire to go to. It could be funding, it could be name, it could be location, but the state school is largely dependent on where you live. As I've said, it can be construed as, instead of an offered benefit of a state, a mandated event. That probably comes with the people who feel that college is a needed thing, by family pressure or perhaps career goals. </p>

<p>But, these are probably pessimistic views on things, and meant to be a bit blunt. I don't mean to degrade any schools, but provide a view on them. Not necessarily my view or the right one, but an interpretation from a (slightly generalized and highly demonized) high school student's eyes.</p>

<p>However, I would say I feel a slightly distilled version of those things(merely replace desires with fears and make the verbs negative. I imagine that's really how people feel, but fearing something not happening and desiring its opposite are neigh the same, at least in this case.</p>

<p>
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Does Arizona have an Honors Program?

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</p>

<p>Yes. I'm happy to say that I got into that (I would be devastated if I didn't.)</p>

<p>In an expensive private university you have much more pressure to work hard considering that your parents are paying so much. There is NO way I'm going to slack off when my parents are paying tens of thousands of dollars for me to be there. If I were going to a state school for free, meh, well that's a different story.</p>

<p>Not a great argument, but the thought definately crossed my mind.</p>

<p>I'm neighbors with a guy who went to a small liberal arts college in PA called Waynesburg College. It's not well known and is infamous for being pretty bad academically. It hasn't ever made Princeton Review's lists or any others. A recruiter from the college came to my high school many years ago, and when I told them I would be going to Virginia, they encouraged me to go to Waynesburg instead, because "it'll be way easier and you'll have a degree from a private school." </p>

<p>Anyway, my neighbor and his wife both went into debt almost two hundred thousand dollars a piece to go to Waynesburg. Constantly, they talk about the prestige of a private university, as though they'd gone to Harvard or Yale. </p>

<p>I think most people (definately me) roll their eyes at them. But some people think that graduating from a private school, any private school, entitles them to a smug demeanor and hubris over those who went to a public university.</p>

<p>Just my two cents,</p>

<p>I question if the freedom from one's parents at a free school would be better for some individuals, likely the same that despise high school.</p>

<p>
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I question if the freedom from one's parents at a free school would be better for some individuals, likely the same that despise high school.

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</p>

<p>That's possible, but I know I would have more freedom going to a private university far, FAR away than a state school nearby where certain people (i.e. parents) can visit me unexpectedly.</p>

<p>Ah, there's the rub.</p>

<p>You from New Jersey too, or Delaware, or one of the other fun states where the state university is more or less 1-2 hours from any other part of the state? Mine's not a half hour away. I'd imagine my parents and I would have to discuss "surprise" visits. And mainly their general lack of existence.</p>

<p>Not that I have anything at all against my parents, but it would just seem to be another extension of high school and lack of trust and independence.</p>

<p>Uh. Kind of..... I live in Arizona (particularly Phoenix.) It only takes a couple of hours to get to the University of Arizona from here. Arizona State University (Main) is only about an hour away, and Arizona State University West is about a half-hour away (I would never want to go to West.) </p>

<p>Either way, it's the whole idea that your parents are still in the same state. It's better to know that they can NEVER COME VISIT ME if I'm all the way in New York rather than at U of A, where it's still possible.</p>

<p>Ah, then I guess people are alike the world over. People from my school complain constantly about the proximity of more or less every school in New Jersey to their homes. </p>

<p>Princeton, TCNJ, Rutgers(in fact every campus) NJIT, Stevens, more or less every college is within an hour from where we are. Some by train.</p>

<p>Not quite a going away.</p>

<p>Of course, so are Philadelphia and New York, but I guess they're just over state lines so its different. Or some rationalization.</p>

<p>serithin.. exactly what i was going to say. i love jersey but i just didnt want to stay here for college. </p>

<p>i wanted to get away, experience something different and new. i could have applied to rutgers and tcnj, both of which are great schools, and gotten in with scholarships and instate tution to make them VERY appealing to my parents.</p>

<p>i didnt even apply to school in nj.. i chose schools in other states that would give me money also to make up for those schools incase my parents decided they only wanted to pay a certain amount for college. i wound up going to BC, with virtually no financial aid so yeah..</p>

<p>i couldve gone to delaware for $10,000 a year but me and my mom talked about it and she told me she wouldnt only pay for BC up to a certain point and i would have to repay $20,000 to her. there was just something about BC that made me decide that it was worth it. </p>

<p>essentially i think this idea comes from upper-middle class/wealthy kids who arent paying for college and can easily choose whichever college they want.</p>

<p>
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the overall quality of the education I'll get there will be worth the premium my parents pay over UMass Amherst (which I think has an excellent linguistics program).

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<p>Doubted. UMass-Amherst has a top ling program for a reason, and that's more than just research. It offers an excellent ling education, which you'd get if you majored in ling.</p>

<p>I've never seen Dartmouth show up in a ling ranking, even for undergrad. I daresay their focus on the subject is somewhat shabby, considering they just group it with cog sci. Just glancing at the course list, I see a thorough theoretical ling program (I'm surprised they separate phonology and phonetics into two different intro courses), but its applied seems pretty lacking. The special courses related to language--like a gender-and-language course, or slips-of-the-tongue course--also seem sparse.</p>

<p>Regardless, I'm sure Dartmouth will provide you with a good education, whether you major in linguistics or not, and its reputation is an advantage over UMass.</p>

<p>I'm not sure I agree with your logic on selectivity. </p>

<p>There are many private schools out there with very low admission standards. There are public schools out there with high admission standards. A few years ago, I remember reading that the incoming class of freshman at Illinois had higher average SAT scores and GPA than those at Northwestern.</p>

<p>Of course, the public perception might be that all private schools are more selective and public schools are less. This certainly isn't the case, however. </p>

<p>I grew up in Pennsylvania, and almost all of my classmates applied to Penn State. The vast majority weren't accepted and most of them decided to go to one of the many private schools in the area.</p>

<p>Personally, I applied to eight colleges in high school (five private and three state schools). I went 4/5 in private schools and 1/3 at state schools, and eventually decided to go to the state school.</p>

<p>Not everyone aspires to go to a private school, and the fact that a school is private does not inherently make it better academically or more selective.</p>

<p>My two cents,</p>

<p>The issue of price is a factor only if the public school is in your home state. Some states have better public schools than others. So it depends on your state. </p>

<p>I think colleges talk about a factor called "price sensitivity". Some families are more sensitive to price than others. So, it also depends on how wealthy your family is.</p>

<p>It also depends on your family's values and on how much better they think a particular private school education would be. Some families are more cognizant of the advantages of elite private education, and are more willing to pay for it.</p>

<p>For me it came down to a top private school (full-tuition) and a top public school w/scholarship. Money wasn't a huge issue; my parents told me I could choose whichever. As cool as the public school was, it was too large and impersonal for me, and it wasn't in an urban area. I probably could be getting the same education at the public school, but I don't think I would be nearly as happy there as I am at my private school. So that's what affected my decision...it had a lot less to do with prestige than "fit"...I think some people love the expansive, populous, bustling environments of a lot of big state schools (I know there are exceptions, like W&M, but in my home state all our public schools are HUGE) while others would rather be at a smaller, more personal private school.</p>

<p>It is actually not that difficult to find good state schools to compare with the expensive private school options. Assuming you have the in-state option, under what conditions would you pay the $100,000+ premium and choose the private school?</p>

<p>GWU at $200,000 over William & Mary at $64,000 (or any state school listed below)</p>

<p>Boston University at $194,000 over UMass Honors College at $72,000</p>

<p>Boston College at $194,000 over U of Vermont at $82,000 (or UMass)</p>

<p>NYU at $196,000 over SUNY, Binghamton at $64,000</p>

<p>Syracuse at $170,000 over SUNY, Binghamton at $64,000</p>

<p>USC at $186,000 over UCLA at $80,000 (or any UC)</p>

<p>American University at $172,000 versus University of Maryland at $72,000</p>

<p>Villanova at $170,000 versus Penn State at $72,000</p>

<p>Any of the above private school versus Michigan at $80,000</p>

<p>Any of the above private school versus North Carolina, Wisconsin, Indiana, Illinois, Washington, Georgia, Virginia, Texas.........</p>

<p>How do you rationalize the choice??? What's going here that people will pay such an extreme premium for the same education??? Are we proving P.T. Barnum right?</p>