gpa or prestige

[Americanski]

<p>
[quote]
i doubt many hs kids considering a career in law have a clue as to what that actually means.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, for that matter, neither do most college students or most law students. Since none of them have actually been lawyers, I don't know how much you expect them to know.</p>

<p>
[quote]
they probably still have no clue as to whether a Harvard or Yale law degree is really the best route to what they actually want in a legal career. believe it or not, it isn't always.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, it pretty much is. I can't think of any legal career you could want in which you'd actually be at a disadvantage having attended Harvard or Yale. I can think of a couple that are pretty much out of reach if you don't.</p>

[unbelievablem]

<p>americanski - if prospective lawyers spent even a fraction of the time they spend trying to figure out the great gpa/prestige/lsat debate, trying to figure out why they want to be doing this, it might be a good start.</p>

<p>attending harvard and yale LS can be a good start on a variety of paths -- if those are the paths you want to take. the fact that you can't contemplate that they may not be the best path for all prospective lawyers, is merely illustrative of the fact that too many prospective lawyers are following a course when they don't even know where it is likely to lead them.</p>

<p>you obviously are convinced you know better. there is probably nothing i can say to convince you otherwise. hopefully others reading this will stop and do some serious thinking about what they want to do and why.</p>

[CC_Admin]

<p>when did harvard and yale come into the discussion at all?</p>

[Americanski]

<p>
[quote]
if prospective lawyers spent even a fraction of the time they spend trying to figure out the great gpa/prestige/lsat debate, trying to figure out why they want to be doing this, it might be a good start.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Because they want money. The same reason 90+% of the workforce bothers to show up every morning. Most of them just don't feel like they need to come up with some pretentious, shallow justification for it. Virtually nobody knows exactly what their jobs are going to be like before they start. I really don't understand what you want out of them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
the fact that you can't contemplate that they may not be the best path for all prospective lawyers, is merely illustrative of the fact that too many prospective lawyers are following a course when they don't even know where it is likely to lead them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This makes no sense. Most of them know where they'll end up: at a major firm. The ones who don't want that have plenty of other options, most of which they were aware of beforehand. How about this: why don't you name any legal career that would be more difficult to get into or succeed at having gone to Harvard or Yale?</p>

[DRab]

<p>Well Americanski, do you think those that graduate last at Harvard and Yale are going to major firms? How about those that do not graduate?</p>

[ariesathena]

<p>Furthermore, how about those who go to Harvard or Yale, rack up an insane amount of debt, and then feel as if they have to go to the big firms to pay it off? Or they have to work in a top firm because that is what their classmates are doing?</p>

<p>Believe it or not, there are people who would prefer to use their law degrees to achieve some good - not to make money. There are those who want law school as a way to get into politics, lobbying, think tanks, or unrelated careers that require the degree. There are people who really, really want to work in a small town - where the Harvard or Yale degree just may be passed over in favour of the person with the degree from a local school. (I've seen a friend go through this - people from his home state could not understand why he got a degree from a "fancy East Coast school.")</p>

<p>Although Harvard does have a very generous loan repayment programme, those loans still need to be repaid - sure, it might be a reduced rate, but you're paying some money to go there. Presumably, if you want to be a district attorney, you may as well just go to the school that lets you graduate with the least amount of debt.</p>

[Americanski]

<p>
[quote]
Well Americanski, do you think those that graduate last at Harvard and Yale are going to major firms? How about those that do not graduate?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, yeah. Because they are. Almost nobody fails to graduate from Harvard or Yale. You still haven't named any career path that's tougher for HY grads.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Furthermore, how about those who go to Harvard or Yale, rack up an insane amount of debt, and then feel as if they have to go to the big firms to pay it off?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, inasmuch as most Harvard and Yale grads aren't idiots who are unaware that their school has a loan repayment assistance program, I don't know how often this is really the case.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are those who want law school as a way to get into politics, lobbying, think tanks, or unrelated careers that require the degree.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, guess what? Harvard and Yale provide you with much better options here, too.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are people who really, really want to work in a small town - where the Harvard or Yale degree just may be passed over in favour of the person with the degree from a local school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is pretty much ********. Harvard and Yale generally outplace local schools even in their local market. Going to some third tier state school because you're afraid some insanely provincial hiring partner at the worst firm in Podunk doesn't take too kindly to them big-city lawyers is pretty stupid.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Presumably, if you want to be a district attorney, you may as well just go to the school that lets you graduate with the least amount of debt.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Or you could go to the school that gives you the best chance of actually getting the job and ensures that you can easily afford to repay whatever loans you had.</p>

<p>So, basically, the two of you have identified two groups of people who shouldn't go to Harvard or Yale:</p>

<p>1) People with an irrational fear that some hick firm will resent their fancy degree.</p>

<p>2) People who are so insanely risk-averse that they are unwilling to take on any debt of any kind, no matter how manageable or how it impacts their employment prospects.</p>

<p>In trying to make some condescending, smarmy comment on how uninformed and unprepared prospective lawyers are, you've made it very clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.</p>

[DRab]

<p>Wow Amerinski, why are you so angry? Ever post of yours comes of as bitter or mad. I'm here to have a discussion, not a fight. I'm not here to insult you or belittle you, but I think some of your views are inaccurate. Also, just because some other person says something and their view might somewaht coincide with mine does not mean that I agree with everything they say. It is misrepresentive of me to write your post as if I agree with everything areisathena said. </p>

<p>My example was pointing out that some people don't finish law school. Whether these people go to Harvard or the most local law school, they have no JD. They aren't going to be working for big firms. Also, what evidence do you have that even the lowest graduates from the best schools work in top firms? Don't you think that these spots would more readily be given to top students at other top, but not as high, schools? I think I would prefer the top student at USC law in my firm over the last to graduate from Yale, Harvard, or Stanford, but maybe that is just me.</p>

[ariesathena]

<p>AmericanSki:</p>

<p>I'm sorry that you are so angry.</p>

<p>Moving onwards, it is my understanding that you are neither a law student nor a lawyer. Why the presumption of authority? </p>

<p>Harvard does have a loan repayment programme. However, it isn't FREE. There are some limits on loan repayment (i.e. if most people in your field don't have law degrees), and it is quite possible that some people go to law school without the desire to be lawyers. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/finaid/lipp/income.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/finaid/lipp/income.php&lt;/a>
For the income levels. Let's say that you really, really want to be a public defender in NYC. You're making about $50,000/year. You still have to pay $4,000/year in loan payments. Over ten years, that's a down payment on a house. </p>

<p>Now imagine someone who works in a small firm and makes $80,000/year - a position that any reasonably good graduate of a reasonably good school should be able to obtain. That person would pay $15,600 annually, for ten years - pretty much the entire cost of an HLS education. Why do that if you can live debt-free? Imagine that the person's annual loan payment, without LIPP, would be $18,000/year. Why on earth would that person, with the HLS debt, not work in a top firm, knowing that he'll ultimately make a lot more money by forgoing the loan repayment?</p>

<p>Do the numbers, dahlin. There's no free ride.</p>

<p>There is a tremendous amount to be said for not having a lot of student loan debt</p>

<p>"Irrational fear" and "hick firms" - I advise you to do your research before speaking so thoughtlessly. Law firms, by nature, are extremely risk-adverse: they will not want to take someone whom they view as only using the position as a temporary job. They want people who are planning on staying in the area indefinitely. To that extent, demonstrating geographical connections can be very important: if you are trying to establish yourself in an area that you don't have many connections with, why not go to the local school? If you're good enough to get into Yale, some excellent schools are going to throw merit aid at you. If you want to work in Chicago, why not take merit aid from Northwestern or UChicago, graduate with less debt, and have a fantastic answer for employers who ask, "Why Chicago?" I have never been on an interview in which the employer did not ask, "Why my town?" Some of them have immediately looked at my resume and said, "Oh, you're from here." I would wonder though about a student who has not lived in the area in question for four years of college and three years of law school. </p>

<p>It's not irrational. Your saying that it is irrational does not make it so.</p>

<p>Calm down, think through what you are saying, and get out of your rigid mentality.</p>

[jonri]

<p>I don't agree with everything A-ski said, but I do agree with part of it. </p>

<p>First, unless you interview VERY poorly, you can get a job with a firm even if you graduate last in your class from H or Y. There are certain firms that won't hire you, but many will. Seriously..from what I've seen, the people who don't get firm offers are people who during 2L summer don't work hard or do something stupid or do something really offensive during an interview. After all, neither ranks so nobody even knows who is ranked last in the class. </p>

<p>As for Yale, first semester is Cr/F. Second semester, you get "grades"--which are H(onors), P(ass), L(ow) P(ass) or F. LPs are pretty rare and there are no rules as to the distribution of H's and P's. Some profs give out Hs to 40% of the class and there is at least one prof who ONLY gives Ps. So, you go into 2L hiring season with at most 4 grades which are just Hs or Ps. Plenty of students get all Ps, so there's really no way to tell you're last in your class. Again, if you want a firm job, you can get one UNLESS you interview terribly or mess up 2L summer. </p>

<p>And, as a general rule, the cost of a law school doesn't correlate with quality. H and Y don't cost any more than a lot of LSs which are ranked far lower. Lower ranked LSs may give a student who can get into H or Y merit aid, but H and Y not only have loan forgiveness programs (which in some cases include some or all UNDERGRADUATE debt), they give some GRANTS to people who are from poor families because they offer need-based financial aid as well. And for those interested in public service, both H and Y have programs for those taking out loans to pay for school where you get a living stipend for a summer if you take a low paying or no paying job. That $$$ doesn't have to be paid back. Lower ranked schools rarely do this. </p>

<p>For most folks who get into H or Y or S or some other top LS, it makes sense to go. There are some exceptions, of course...but they are few and far between.</p>

[DRab]

<p>Well, Jonri, Americanski's language in post #24 said "major firm." Does this modify anything in your opinion?</p>

[fatjoe]

<p>Do these big firms only recruit out of the top 14? or is it possible to land a big firm job by attending a fairly regional school</p>

<p>i.e.: I live in NYC. If I go to Fordham or St.Johns or Brooklyn law what would I have to do in order to get a job at a major firm (such as Skadden, Sullivan&Cromwell etc) as compared with someone who graduated from a top 14 school. Do the major employers only recruit from the top 10% of the class if youre school isn't in the Top 14</p>

<p>Furthermore, if I wanted to work in NYC, would I be hurt by going to a school in Boston (BC or Boston U), or would the firm just see that Boston U is a pretty good law school (#20) and have a more "laxed" standard over say an NYC school outside the top 14</p>

<p>And since we are on the topic of Boston U, and Fordham, can anyone testify as to how well they are regarded in the Northeastern region?</p>

[Americanski]

<p>
[quote]
Wow Amerinski, why are you so angry?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Maybe it's the ridiculous condescension of people who don't know what they're talking about pretending to be experts.</p>

<p>
[quote]

My example was pointing out that some people don't finish law school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And my point is that this almost never happens at Harvard or Yale, unless the person gets an offer for something better (like I-banking) and decides to persue that. But it's very rare. </p>

<p>
[quote]
it is my understanding that you are neither a law student nor a lawyer.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Once again, your understanding is wrong. </p>

<p>
[quote]
There is a tremendous amount to be said for not having a lot of student loan debt

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nobody ever said that Harvard was free. If your only point is that people with really limited aspirations may as well take a full ride at a lesser school, well, fine. But the idea that they're somehow limiting their career choices because they have a Harvard degree (and not just because they have debt which, again, isn't really that much of a limit anyway) is clearly ridiculous.</p>

<p>
[quote]
if you are trying to establish yourself in an area that you don't have many connections with, why not go to the local school?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nobody is going to ask why you went to Harvard instead of Podunk State. Law firms realize that HLS grads have a chance to work just about wherever they want. They're certainly not going to assume you're just working there because you couldn't get anything in the city you actually wanted. They might be concerned that you'll decide to leave anyway, but you could always make up some reason (a "fiance from the area" is a popular choice) that you want to work there. And in any event, a firm in small town isn't going to turn down the probably only HLS applicant they get. Plus, how many people actually want to work in some minor city they've never been to, anyway?</p>

[DRab]

<p>
[quote]
Maybe it's the ridiculous condescension of people who don't know what they're talking about pretending to be experts.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think that more than anyone else, you fit your description. Almost every post I read of yours comes off as angry, rude, or condescending. I'm not pretending to be an expert- far from it. What credential do you have that makes you the expert, though? Are they any different than other posters? Nobody here is claiming to be or acting as if they are an expert besides you. Everyone here is sharing their views, and even if I or some other person does not have direct experience with some thing, it does not mean we do not have knowledge of it.</p>

[unbelievablem]

<p>to say that attending harvard or yale are always the best choices because a harvard or yale grad will always have the best career opportunities ignores some other issues. it reflects an assumption that this process is all about being able to reach the highest brass ring. </p>

<p>where one attends law school will have a great effect on what options are open to one at the end of that attendance. but it will also affect the lifestyle one has during those years of attendance. it will affect whether law school is in fact what a person expected it to be, and therefore effect whether that person chooses to continue. it will affect whether the study of law in the classroom will bear any relationship to the practice of law in the real world. it will have an effect on what one expects from one's lifestyle as a practicing attorney. it will affect how one views the legal community which will in turn affect future career aspirations. it will affect who are ones classmates and fellow alumni. it can affect how one is perceived as soon as one mentions the name of the shool - and not always in the way you might assume.</p>

<p>some of you may want to make the assumption that the effect harvard and yale will have on all of these factors could only be positive. fine, if that's your perception and for certain posters it is obvious from the discourse presented here, nothing is likely to change that. but for those others reading this - i would urge a consideration of the basic issues of 1) whether to go to laws school and 2) which law school would then be the best for you, to be based on more than the prestige you will hope to earn from your choices.</p>

<p>and if anyone wonders, i say this as a graduate of one of the top law schools (exactly which i prefer not to identify since this really isn't about one specific school) and someone who then worked with other graduates of some of the top law schools and then graduates of other "lesser tier" law schools. and as someone who knows people from my graduating class who are no longer practicing attorneys -- and no they didn't all flock to wall street or i-business. are they the norm? maybe not - but i think many (including those still in legal practice) have wished they'd known more about the path they were heading down before they started.</p>

[lkf725]

<p>unbelievablem,
Do you mean to say that some of your law school colleagues wished they would have not attended law school at all, or that they would have been happier at a lower tier law school?</p>

[unbelievablem]

<p>lkf725--its not necessarily as black and white as that.</p>

<p>i think many recognize that because of the school they went to, they ended up going down a career path that they ended up realizing simply wasn't right for them. some were able to steer to other paths, either within the law or outside of it - but it often wasn't easy - not just in terms of finding a job, but in terms of emotionally and financially being able to get off a path they had been led to believe was "the best" path for someone with their credentials and abilities.</p>

<p>would they have ultimately been happier if they'd gone elsewhere, or was law simply not for them? who can say. </p>

<p>i'm not suggesting that someone admitted to Harvard will find true happiness if the go to Fourth Tier Law School instead. but i am suggesting that instead of assuming that Harvard is the be all and end all, a prospective law student take a good hard look at why they are a prospective law student and question which law school will best suit them -- and there is more to that determination than whether one is ranked #1 and another ranked #12 or # 25.</p>

<p>As an intellectual pursuit, attendance at one of the top law schools was a very satisfying intellectual experience. As preparation for being a lawyer in the real world -- I personally found it much less of a success. I am one of those who chose to leave the practice of law. Do I wish I had attened another law school - I honestly don't know. I know the path I took would likely have been different. Sometimes I think that even though I didn't stay in the legal profession, at least I had that great intellectual experience in law school. But other times I wonder if a different law school would have altered my view of the legal profession.</p>

<p>I don't claim to know the "answer" -- I only urge prospective law students to ask the questions and even if they still feel uncertain of the "answer" to at least have an awareness of the issues guide them through the process.</p>

[lkf725]

<p>I appreciate you post, unbelievablem. Isn't is always true that "the grass is aways greener"? I sometimes wonder how my life would be different if my luck had swung the other way (either better or worse), if I had or had not met certain people, if I had made different choices, etc. So hard to say. If only we had a crystal ball!</p>

[unbelievablem]

<p>don''t know if its a grass is always greener issue as much as a know to "look before you leap" issue. :)</p>

[calipharius]

<p>Notwithstanding Americanski's haughty attitude, I think his central thesis is correct. Almost anyone who is certain enough that they wish to pursue a career in law, as to come to be in a position where they are choosing between Harvard or Yale and an array of other schools, would be remiss not attend Harvard or Yale. </p>

<p>The notable exception was identified by ariesathena. If you have a real geographic affinity, then it probably behooves you to go to a school in that region. But apart from this situation, I am at a loss for coming up with situations where the Harvard or Yale JD would work against you.</p>

<p>Though unbelievablem's point is well taken, I do not view it as a strike against top-tier law schools, especially Harvard and Yale. While it may be the case that students at some top schools undergo some type of mental despotism, and are molded to think of law in a certain way, I just cannot view this possibility as a reason to turn down a top-tier acceptance. As interesting as antecdotal evidence is, I consider it toppled by more general empirical trends. Whether you're interested in making a lot of money, becoming a politician, or doing pro-bono legal work, I think having a Harvard or Yale degree will rarely hurt you, and often help you.</p>