<p>I don’t get why some of the employers on here are saying a 4.0 GPA raises red flags. There are socially awkward loners at every GPA level. There are people who need external motivation at every GPA level. There are people who aren’t committed to the long term at every GPA level. Maybe y’all need to revisit some of your assumptions. </p>
<p>A 4.0 signifies achievement at a consistently high level on problem sets, tests, projects (individual and group), essays, and participation. It signifies either that the student is especially bright, extremely diligent, or some combination of those. I can understand why some factors, like experience and the interview, can outweigh that, but since when is achieving at a high level, since when is being intelligent and/or dedicated, ever a bad thing? </p>
<p>An analogy…
Would Ford motors look down on an applicant who spends 700 hours building a car from scratch because he didn’t spend those 700 hours socializing with people? Because they are worried he might leave and start his own auto company, since he is already able to build a car? Because they don’t know how he will operate in a corporate environment? Now the fact that the applicant built his own car on its own probably would not get him the job, but it certainly would not raise red flags.</p>
<p>In the OP’s post they listed that they went to a top engineering school. If I am not mistaken it is the #1 ranked school for Industrial Engineering in the country, so I doubt that is it.</p>
<p>Georgia Tech - I seem to remember previous posts he mentioned Operations Research (one of my favorite subjects). A 4.0 is doable, no question, but OR is not the kind of field you generally start as, unlike, say, a BSEE where there are plenty of ‘entry level’ jobs. OR reminds me of statistics or economics, where one rarely finds statistics or economics only entry level jobs, but rather there are jobs that need OR as part of getting something else done (business, finance, coding, etc etc). So it’s a question of how you can sell yourself when the recruiter says “FedEx - FedEx - packages - Memphis” if all you say is “OR - OR - OR” then you’re toast, OR is a tool set within a larger framework of business processes but few people get hired entry level only for OR.</p>
<p>BSEE or Civil Eng with a 4.0 is a different story, the work is much more defined at the entry level…</p>
<p>Hey, I also seem to suffer from the same problem, could someone give me some advice how where I am lacking?</p>
<p>I have a 3.7 in Mechanical Engineering at the University of Michigan and I also have a minor in Art and Design. I do well on tests but I can also apply the knowledge practically. For almost every project I’ve worked on, I was responsible for 70-80% of the success. I’ve only had 1 leadership role in a student org, but I have had plenty of leadership roles in group projects. I wasn’t able to land any internships in the US over the past 4 years, so I’ve resorted to short internship experiences outside the US with companies without any sort of internship program. I’ve also done research for a professor during the summer and part-time during the school year. I am more capable than most students in the school. </p>
<p>However, I’ve yet to successfully land an internship. Almost every engineering student I have met at the University that was not as capable as me have been able to land internships and the few students I recognize as being smarter and more capable than me haven’t been able to which is what made me think the same exact thing as OP. </p>
<p>Can you guys please tell me what areas I could be lacking in? I’m not lacking in social skills and I doubt I come off as too awkward or nervous during interviews. I also don’t come off as arrogant as I probably seem right now. I’ve gone to several workshops for resume critique and mock interviews and I’ve always gotten pretty positive feedback.
It is my senior year and I’ve already been accepted to the masters program but I still can’t find a summer internship and I’m also worried this problem will continue after I’ve finished my masters and looking for a full-time. I’ve thought a lot about this but I can’t seem to see any seriously lacking areas. </p>
<p>From what I can tell, the weaker areas in my resume are:
-lack of leadership in student organizations (just 1, very short term)
-lack of longterm internships in the US
-lack of focus with internship experiences</p>
<p>Some of my personal weaknesses that may come up during interviews are:
-i’m introverted
-I probably dont ask enough questions at the end of interviews
-I don’t make enough small talk with the interviewers</p>
<p>At the moment, I’m considering completely committing to academia life since that seems to be the only place where I can get recognized but I seriously don’t want to. Please tell me what could be wrong with me. </p>
<p>I don’t know enough about MechE to really help you much clobah, but some thoughts:</p>
<p>"-lack of leadership in student organizations (just 1, very short term)"</p>
<p>No one actually cares about this. Having a leadership role that made an important and meaningful impact or change on the organization for the better, maybe. But just “being a leader” is worthless. Keep it on your resume unless you need the room for something else (though it doesn’t sound like you do), but if you make a big deal of it or try to play it up it seems like you really just have nothing important to say. </p>
<p>"-i’m introverted" and “-I don’t make enough small talk with the interviewers”</p>
<p>I don’t know you so it’s hard to say, but you might be coming across as just awkward and boring. You don’t need to be the social butterfly, but if you don’t speak outside of when it’s necessary it doesn’t make you look good. This shouldn’t be too hard of a thing to fake at a basic level even. For instance, the interviewer will probably ask you right in the beginning something like “How are you?” or “How are you doing today?” or something like that. Instead of responding with something like “Good” (which is right now how I’m imagining you responding) say something about how you really liked what you had for lunch or how you just watched the latest episode of some popular TV show or something else unimportant like that. It immediately adds some amount of personality to you.</p>
<p>"-I probably dont ask enough questions at the end of interviews"</p>
<p>It’s my impression that this is important but I’ve never sat at the other end of the table so I won’t be able to say very conclusively. I’d recommend doing so (even if you don’t care - but if the job is a good fit for you, you probably should care) but make sure they’re actually interesting relevant questions. I have absolutely no idea what an interesting relevant question for a MechE would be so it’s hard for me to give any sort of an example here, but don’t just ask generic questions. </p>
<p>I had a few interviews my Freshman and Sophomore years where I knew it wasn’t going to happen by the end of the interview. In those interviews, I just asked what I could do better next time. Only in one of them did I ever get a useful response (the other two were like “Hey, we don’t know that, we’re still considering all candidates.” or something like that) but it was somewhat helpful. I’d say if you know you bombed an interview then go ahead and ask, they may give you some good information. </p>
<p>@bschoolwiz He said he wasn’t trying to seem arrogant…just wanting some help.</p>
<p>@clobah GPA isn’t it, I have a 4.0 and am definitely getting offers…It more than likely is all the stuff you listed at the bottom of your post. They may not seem big, but honestly they are really what matter the most. Being able to communicate to others is a key skill. A buddy of mine does a lot of interviews, he says they can be the smartest person in the world, but if their personality is lacking, what good will they be on a team. It is good that you recognize it, now all you have to do is overcome it. Go to your career center and do mock interviews, just keep practicing. Get out of your comfort zone. And if it stresses you out, just let it go…easier said than done believe me I know. Just be comfortable. Interviews are all about preparation. Make sure you have some go to questions for the end…Have 2-3. If you have any questions I am sure your career services can guide you, but if not, I am sure many people on here can help. Good luck…and just be glad you can fix this instead of the guy who cant change his GPA.</p>
<p>Hell at least you guys are getting interviews. Unless you know the right person at many aerospace companies, it’s a complete crapshoot with fire and forget online submissions even with a 4.0.</p>
<p>Edit: I’m being too harsh, my gripe only applies to space related jobs. My aeronautical track friends are doing just fine.</p>
<p>@Vladenschlutte You’re spot on, I barely say or do anything that isn’t necessary, so far I’m pretty sure I’ve always just said “Good” when asked “how are you” during interviews. It just feels unnatural for me in an interview setting, KNOWING that I’m forcing a small talk to happen, but I’ll work on it. Thanks</p>
<p>@Chucktown Thanks for the suggestion. I’m always prepared for interviews and I think the content of my answers are fine and I always prepare 2-3 questions and I think I’m usually pretty composed, but I think your right, I don’t show any personality during interviews. I’ve gone to mock interviews before but the focus was mostly on the content of my answers and less on how I was acting, next time I’ll ask the mock interviewer to provide feedback on how I presented myself.</p>
<p>@bschoolwiz I was being blunt since I was asking for advice but how should I communicate how much I contributed to a team during interviews without sounding arrogant? In interviews so far, I’ve never mentioned how much I actually contributed cause I was afraid they would think I do not work well with others. I worked on a 4 man lab group where I did 100% of the work unarguably, and up til now I’ve just listed the specific tasks I did instead of outright saying I did all the work. But so far that hasn’t landed me any jobs, so do you think I should try being completely blunt with interviewers or should I keep doing what I’ve been doing? But you’re sorta right in that I’m probably a poor leader in group dynamics. Even though I get along personally with my teammates, I end up doing most of the work myself instead of trying to get my teammates involved. You were poking fun at me but thanks for replying anyway. Honestly any advice would be appreciated.</p>
<p>One of my roles is to interview law students for externships. Some are former engineers, some military, some have never worked in the real world. Grades are important and the resume is important but if I don’t LIKE you during the interview, you will not be coming to work here. I want someone who can mesh in the office as well as be competent. Not someone who is a puppy quivering with anxiety, or Mr. Onewordanswers or Ms. You’d be so lucky to have me or her twin Ms. I’m rarely wrong. I get that it’s a fine line but it isn’t so fine that others don’t manage to be both personable and reasonably smart. /data point </p>
This statement is troubling to me - in a well-functioning team, everyone should be contributing in proportion to their expected participation. A good leader makes sure that this happens, and helps to maximize the conversion of effort into product. If your statement above is true, not only are you not leading, you are not in the presence of leadership. Either everyone you have worked with at Michigan is a slacker (unlikely) or you are hard to work with.</p>
<p>
With that GPA, I would assume that this is true for individual tasks - indeed, that is what the GPA is essentially meant to represent.</p>
<p>
Well, that was not my experience - at the two schools where I have been or known undergrads, plenty of people with high GPA’s have managed to get internships. However, there is a perception that those with the highest GPA’s have sacrificed interpersonal skills in their strive for perfection, and there is also the belief that such people have higher educational/career aspirations (grad school, MBA, management, etc) that may make their hire a short-term prospect. These perceptions are not universal and are definitely something that can be overcome, and IS overcome on a regular basis.</p>
<p>
Those would seem to be good steps, but I would suspect that either you are missing (or not getting) needed feedback on your negatives or that your behavior is changing during REAL interviews.</p>
<p>
Not an issue. Companies want people who can “lead from behind” as much or more than they want people with titles.</p>
<p>
Yes, this is an issue - some kind of experience is important in engineering.</p>
<p>
Lack of focus is ALWAYS an issue. Companies usually want people who clearly want the job being offered.</p>
<p>
In engineering, this is hardly uncommon.</p>
<p>
Possible - asking smart, targeted questions shows that you are informed about the company, and that you are not just interested in A job but that you are specifically interested in THIS job.</p>
<p>
Companies need people who can work in teams, and that includes some basic social skills. Can you walk into a room on day 1 of a project and engage with them? If you can’t, then that is going to be a drag on team productivity. Finding the right balance between “awkward, doesn’t talk” and “inappropriate and/or unfocused” is important to team function.</p>
<p>I’m a little confused by some of the comments about 4.0 students having difficulty working in teams… are they completely carrying their groups in every class? I know not every class has a team project, but I would say a good amount of them, especially junior-senior years, have some kind of team component… and if you consistently can’t function well, you will not get an A. </p>
<p>I think maybe some employers have reserves against hiring 4.0 because they’re afraid of the possibilities mentioned by others so far (commitment issues, social awkwardness, turnover, know-it-all-ism, etc.), but I would suggest that these are concerns are misdirected at the 4.0 students – as I believe someone mentioned, people of all GPA’s can exhibit these qualities. </p>
<p>I guess I don’t know many perfect 4.0’s by the end of senior year (maybe that’s another story) but the high 3.9’s that I know have no obvious social deficiencies that would cause concern. They’re normal people, for the most part, who posses advanced motivation and mental clarity, and would have a lot to contribute an engineering company. Most of these people are going to grad school though…</p>
<p>Sorry for getting off-topic – my advice would be to develop your own understanding of how your previous engineering accomplishments provide you with the skills and experience to have a high impact on the specific company that you’re interviewing with; and pitch that. They are investing in you, and you are selling yourself. Personality is big in industry, but in a technical engineering industry job, concrete engineering achievements are the standard against which you’ll be measured. </p>
<p>People are referring to trends though, not exceptions. Sure, there are kids with 2.9 GPAs that are socially awkward as well, but the general concenus is that kids with lower GPA’s tend to be more outgoing, sociable, stable, and in some cases more eager to work. The key is finding a balance.</p>
<p>The relationship between GPA and engineering workload isn’t linear afterall. The amount of effort, and dedication required to get a 3.5+ is considerably higher than what’s required to get, say, a 3.3. Those who pull off a GPA in the 3.9-4.0 range are no doubt exceptional students, but there is a high likelihood that they devoted the vast majority of their energy to pure academics, rather than diversifying that energy and becoming well-rounded. The reality is that engineering, by nature, requires a mix of academic and social skills, although the ratio is generally skewed more towards academic skills. To be a desirable engineer, you need to be capable of doing the academic work, but are also not a one-trick pony. Sometimes the intangible skills are highly sought after by employers… you know, while that 4.0 student was busy trying to perfect his grades, the 3.3 student studied enough to have a solid understanding of the material, but then knew when to stop. He/she spent the rest of his/her time going mountain biking/hiking/hanging out with friends, building model rockets, flying airplanes, gaining social/life skills. This makes for a well-rounded student, which most employers see as ideal.</p>
<p>Sure, there are some engineering positions out there where you can be a complete “booknerd” with very little in the way of social and/or life skills. These jobs are few and far between though. </p>
<p>Maybe it is something that is not occurring to you. It isn’t just your GPA, I guarantee that.</p>
<p>Funny story from my past: Future husband was at the top of our grad school class, and had many interviews. Kept getting rejected and it didn’t make sense to me, though I know he isn’t extremely outgoing. Finally, I asked him what he was wearing. Well, he was wearing an old leisure suit from the 70s…in the late 80’s. LOL</p>
<p>We went and bought a new suit and tie. He got the job at the next interview. So, look at all angles of this. It is not your excellent GPA. It is something else.</p>
<p>So my DS, who is president and captain of his school’s club volleyball team, is official practice member of their varsity women’s team, is officer of local IEEE chapter, attends every football game and most basketball games, and has myriad other social activities, will be penalized for his 4.0 GPA?</p>
<p>^ appreciate your optimism, but why has he not received a single reply to his internship applications? He’s only a rising junior, so no panic yet, but if a student like that can’t even get a response, let alone an interview, who can?</p>
<p>Is he going to career fairs? Talking to recruiters face to face? Online applications tend to be a black hole. I’ve heard times where people got responses 6-8 + months after they sent the applications in…</p>
<p>Yes he’s going to career fairs and talking to recruiters. He will also going to networking events at the IEEE conference this.weekend, hope that leads to.something. He has, in fact, heard that some companies don’t respond until mid to late March, so there’s hope.</p>