<p>Hi,
I am new to the forum.
Let me indulge in a quick bio. before I get to my question.
- Hey, my name is Ron H. I have completed one year of university though I am not enrolled in any university at the moment. I entered college at the age of 17 planning on majoring in pure math and completed my freshman year before an unfortunate incident that mainly consisted of very bad lower body injuries and resulted in long spans of time in the hospital. I've never enjoyed spending hours in front of the TV or have had an affinity for oversleeping, so I decided that I would read as much as I could, including several math books in which I would also complete the practice problems. As my interest in math grew more intense I devoted almost all of my time to reading and practicing math. At first, I was just looking at my math self study as a way to stay sharp so when I returned to university the next year, I wouldn't be mentally rusty. But it turned into an obsession, as I have mastered all the topics in the undergraduate curricula. I took the GRE math subject test last April and nearly got a perfect score. I am going to take it again in October, hoping to get a perfect score. I bet you see where the question is going...
I don't want to spent 3 whole years doing math that I already know. I want to apply to graduate school. Do you think that I have a remote chance of getting in? Also, If I am to apply, I will need recommendations. In my one year of university (It's a well respected one) I made A's in all my classes, so I am thinking of making this request to a few of the professors. Do you think they will reject this request? Will they laugh?
I really appreciate your input. Getting in to Grad School is the most important thing for me right now. It is my dream. And I don't want to endure the horrors of wasting precious time as an undergraduate.
- Ron</p>
<p>I have no idea. Why don’t you email a professor somewhere?</p>
<p>You cannot gain admittance into a graduate program without an undergraduate degree.</p>
<p>I have some suggestions, though. Return to your university, and find out what you can do to test out of as many math courses as possible. Then take upper level and graduate level courses as an undergraduate. Supplement math courses with those from other disciplines to give yourself a more well-rounded education. </p>
<p>Just because you got a near perfect score on the math subject test, it doesn’t mean that you have been trained as a mathematician. Courses – seminars, in particular – will teach you how to research and how to approach problems from novel angles. The exchange of ideas in class is often as important as the actual course content. </p>
<p>You’ll also want to engage in some kind of independent study and research. You’ll need that to get into graduate school. Your solid knowledge of mathematical topics will go a long way here toward forging a special relationship with a prof, who will likely enjoy mentoring you.</p>
<p>It sounds like you are in a perfect position to do research with a professor for a couple of years. That is a great thing because not only will you learn what it is actually like to be a mathematician but you may even get a publication or two while an undergrad which will be very helpful when applying for grad school. </p>
<p>Normally I would say research experience is the one thing you absolutely need to have to get into grad school, but I guess this thread brings up a good point. An undergrad degree is the one you absolutely need to get into grad school. </p>
<p>Don’t feel like you are going to be wasting the next three years. Even if you could get accepted into grad school now there is no way you would survive with no prior research experience, and only one year of college experience.</p>
<p>Some universities have programs that allow advanced students to earn a Bachelor’s and Master’s degree at the same time, in the standard 4-year time period for a regular undergraduate degree. Students in these programs typically spend their junior and senior years taking graduate courses and doing research for a Master’s thesis. Look into those programs! (Just to get you started, the University of Pennsylvania and Boston College offer this option.) </p>
<p>You said that you mastered all the topics in the undergraduate curriculum. Just out of curiosity, which topics are that? The <em>minimum</em> courses my college recommends to students who want to go to graduate school in math are 2 semesters each of abstract algebra, real analysis and topology, along with a couple of math electives (e.g. algebraic number theory, complex analysis, PDEs). </p>
<p>Graduates of my college who have been accepted into good graduate programs in recent years (Michigan Ann-Harbor, Wisconsin-Madison, UCLA, John Hopkins) have gone significantly beyond the minimum recommendation. They took several graduate courses in their undergraduate years and have worked on research projects, many of them resulting in publications. </p>
<p>If your former college did not offer these opportunities, why not consider transferring somewhere else?</p>
<p>Congratulations on your high GRE math subject score. That shows that you have mastered Calculus and Linear Algebra 
Now prove that you can handle real math!</p>
<p>I don’t seem to remember there being Calc and Linear Algebra on the GREs. Maybe my memory is faultering, or maybe I’m missing the meaning of the ;), but from what I remember the GREs only really covered high school math.</p>
<p>They are referring to the GRE Math Subject Test. I have never taken it but I assume we can trust them.</p>
<p>They have Calculus and Linear Algebra on the GRE SUBJECT TEST not the general test. There are other topics as well. If I publish several high quality research papers with professors though do not want to earn a bachelors degree, do you think I will have a good chance of getting in to a graduate school then?</p>
<p>No. A bachelor’s degree is a prerequisite for any respected graduate program.</p>
<p>You’re the first I’ve heard refer to undergraduate years as “the horrors of wasting precious time.”</p>
<p>Mathguy - trust us, take the time and do it the right way. You will not find a reputable school willing to take you without a degree - unless of course you can do something like solve a millenium problem or somesuch. You might find a very poor school willing to do so, but where is the upside to that?</p>
<p>If you are as advanced as you think you are, a few years of undergrad will let you position yourself to go into the best grad schools. If you are not as well prepared, undergrad will prepare you. This is not a race to get to the PhD fastest, it is a climb to get to the PhD best.</p>
<p>People HAVE been accepted into graduate school without bachelors degrees before. My question is whether you considered me to be worthy of such of an exception. It is a rare event, but it happens. For example Arie Israel was a math prodigy who was excepted into FAU’s masters program without a bachelors. He is currently pursuing a doctorate at Princeton. Here’s the link- <a href=“http://weblog.science.fau.edu/info/images/israel.html[/url]”>http://weblog.science.fau.edu/info/images/israel.html</a>
These are not “very poor universities” they’re excellent ones.
The physicist John Moffat also was granted such an exception at Trinity College, another very good school. <a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Moffat_(physicist[/url])”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Moffat_(physicist)</a>
Another prodigy Michael Viscardi, was offered by a faculty member to “write a recommendation for a top PhD. program.” Although he didn’t posses a bachelors degree at the time. [Psych</a> Central - Math prodigy wins $1,000 award](<a href=“http://psychcentral.com/news/archives/2006-05/ams-mpw051806.html]Psych”>http://psychcentral.com/news/archives/2006-05/ams-mpw051806.html)</p>
<p>Exceptions to this rule HAVE been made, and there is no reason why I should not try to have one made for me.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Your first post =
I want to apply to graduate school. Do you think that I have a remote chance of getting in? Do you think they will reject this request? Will they laugh? </p></li>
<li><p>Your last post =
Exceptions to this rule HAVE been made, and there is no reason why I should not try to have one made for me. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>If you already know there is no reason why you should not try, what is it you’re asking of the forum? If you just need support for your decision…I’m afraid you might not find too many on this forum (well versed as they indeed are) who have any personal experience with or knowledge of your dilemma.</p>
<p>Another option is to investigate UK schools, where you can avoid distribution requirements and may be able to earn an undergrad degree largely through testing and an undegrad thesis.</p>
<p>Fair enough about Arie Israel at Princeton. (The Moffat case happened too long ago, and Viscardi went to Harvard as an undergrad.) Pay attention to a fine distinction, however: FAU, not Princeton, was the institution that let him do graduate work without an undergraduate degree. Princeton took him because he already had a master’s degree. The distinction is a fine one, I know, but it’s important.</p>
<p>From the Princeton graduate admissions site:
</p>
<p>So, you’re going to be stuck when you have to send in transcripts and all you have is one year of undergraduate work. You’d have to be like Israel, with a professor so solidly behind you and who also has ties to the intended graduate program that he will facilitate an exception for you. First, however, he has to know your mathematical mind beyond coursework. </p>
<p>From the Princeton mathematics site:
</p>
<p>Plus, you’ll need to take foreign language classes:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>(I don’t know how Israel got around the preceding since he refused to take a foreign language at FAU.)</p>
<p>My point is that even if you deserve an exception, you probably aren’t ready to be a successful applicant to a top program. You have to prove your superior knowledge of mathematics through documented advanced courses, and you need to work closely with a few faculty members on research. </p>
<p>It is truly exceptional that you taught yourself undergraduate mathematics.</p>
<p>Instead of bringing this question to a bunch of random people here at CC, you need to take it to one or more faculty members at a university with the kind of graduate program you think that you’d like to pursue. They should be able to recommend an appropriate course of action for you.</p>
<p>Wishing you all the best.</p>
<p>I am sure those people you mentioned who attended graduate school without their bachelors had proved themselves in some way other than their class work. Maybe you really do know everything you would learn during the next 3 years in undergrad but all of the people applying for grad school AFTER they earned their bachelors will know that material as well. Plus many of them will have research experience. </p>
<p>Just knowing all of the material is not what grad school is about. And an undergraduate education is not a waste of time.</p>
<p>BTW, Michael Viscardi is STILL an undergraduate. He is currently two floors under me in my dorm, probably doing math. If an undergraduate degree is good enough for him, you should probably finish one too.</p>
<p>Arie Israel, whom you cited, started off by taking classes as a non-degree student at FAU before he was given his unique chance.</p>
<p>No one here can say whether or not you have the ability to jump directly into grad-level study, and unfortunately no professors do either. You will need to convince someone to take a big leap for you, show that you are not just able but in fact more able and more worthy than all those other people out there who are also incredibly talented and have college degrees and recommendations from regarded researchers.</p>
<p>This could happen, but no one here will be able to tell you if it can happen for you.</p>
<p>I would still recommend getting your undergrad first - if you pick a decent school they will not require you to repeat anything you can prove you know. And if you are as talented as you represent then you should be easily able to get the kind of recognition that will get you the grad program of your choice.</p>
<p>Could you give a complete list of all the math topics you’ve studied on your own? Perhaps with that information, people will be in a better position to offer you feedback on your chances.</p>
<p>FWIW- the math subject GRE literature states that around half of the test is calculus based.</p>