I’ve seen older posts about grade deflation policies at McGill. Does anyone have information about the policy and its details? One sophomore student reports one of his psych professors was told by the administrators to bring his class average down from an A- to a B. So there is some kind of monitoring of class averages, but it’s not clear whether there is an official, university-wide policy on it. The Princetonian reported extensively on that university’s grade deflation policy, since abandoned, and referred to “comically high GPA’s” at Harvard and Yale. Wellesely students are discussing their school’s grade deflation guidelines. Just seeking information on this - not taking a stand one way or another.
I’m not sure if it is an official policy, but most of the classes that my U1 has taken the Profs will say they want the average to be a B- or so. My friends with kids in the US look at me sideways when I say things like "oh my God my son got a grade with an A at the front of it!
My son’s experience is the McGill rigor is VERY real. He is working harder than almost every one of his HS buddies who are are Ivies or NESCAC schools. That said, he is having a ton of fun, learning an insane amount, and very happy.
I am not aware of a systemic “policy” on grade deflation. My DD was surprised at the different grading system, where an 80% in considered an A-. The grading scale is here : https://www.mcgill.ca/study/2015-2016/university_regulations_and_resources/undergraduate/gi_grading_and_grade_point_averages. I am not sure if there is a newer version. Course rigor is real at McGill!
I’ll add on to the previous comments. My son is a U0 and by all accounts in high school, a strong math student. He got a 5 on his AP Calc BC etc. Yeah, he worked his butt off for a B- in linear algebra (a notorious McGill weeder course). The class ave was about 68, and that is typical. I would estimate that he’s down about 15% overall off of his high school average. He feels tremendous pressure because his friends in US colleges have 3.6 - 4.0. But I feel that his 3.3 is result of legit effort and extreme course rigor.
I don’t believe there’s a systemic mandate for specific course averages. But one needs to be very talented to get As.
My McGill first year student, a very disciplined high-achiever with excellent study skills, was slammed sideways by the rigor. She did (barely) pull a 4.0 first semester, but as she said, she “didn’t even have time to put makeup on all semester.”
For example, for her Calc 2 class, she:
Attended every lecture
Attended every tutorial
Attended weekly student-led study sessions
Attended weekly sessions with a paid tutor
And spent countless hours every week doing practice problems on her own.
All for one class.
She is taking a lighter courseload this semester. She says she just can’t keep up that pace. I really feel for students who have to keep a job on top of the academic pressure. Something has to give.
My D has told tales about profs being advised to curve grades so that 10% of the class has an A, but I don’t know how reliable or widespread that policy is.
@Omegadoug A 3.3 is a very good GPA for a U0. My son had a respectable GPA the first semester but second semester had strep for three full weeks (couldn’t get out of bed except to be walked to the clinic) and it destroyed his GPA. It hit during midterms and papers. He had two exams delayed by a week but still took the makeups with a 103 fever. From there, he just felt like he could never catch up.
@ShrimpBurrito 4.0? Damn!!!
All of that said, my son wouldn’t trade his McGill experience for anything.
@SwimmingDad I can’t imagine trying to keep up with McGill coursework while sick. It seems like just a couple of days out would put you way behind. I’ve been holding my breath for D, waiting for the flu/strep/mono/whatever to hit her.
D was at home with us when she saw her grades. She was screaming, crying, jumping up and down, which of course made me cry. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen her that happy. She has her eye on some high-powered graduate programs, and if she can keep this up, she’ll have a decent shot at them.
@ShrimpBurrito - A 4.0 at McGill is an amazing accomplishment!!! You must be incredibly proud.
@SwimmingDad - My daughter went back with a small fortune worth of supplements (Vitamin C, D, Multi, Omega 3, etc), hand sanitizer and disinfectant spray. She knows if she misses even a day or two of classes being sick, it will be an uphill battle to catch up. I’m so sorry your son had to learn this first hand!
I keep hearing that math at McGill is “savage”. But then again, I hear the same about UofT and Waterloo.
My son was stunned by the difficulty of his finals in every course but one.
@Omegadoug @SwimmingDad @ShrimpBurrito - The key to success at McGill is being self motivated - no one is going to hold your hand or remind you to do the reading as you go. If you are not a self-starter, McGill is not the place for you. But even more significant than the rigor, is the fact that I feel my DD is getting an amazing education. I had concerns about the lack of accessibility of professors at such a huge school, but she hasn’t found it a problem to meet with professors and/or TAs.
I appreciate your perspectives and experiences, everyone. According to data at McGill’s grading policy webpage (thanks @Happy4u for the link), letter grade scale and grading expectations align closely with French universities, which is to say there are few “gimmes”. Coming from a US system rife with grade inflation, it also means that maintaining undergraduate Honors (3.0GPA) and High Honors (3.5GPA) status is quite impressive.
Son went to, arguably, the best public HS in MN, and graduated with a 3.6’ish GPA doing a rigorous course load(13 AP’s) that put him into U1 at Desautels. He worked pretty hard, but being a Varsity athlete cut into a lot of his study time, and he’s a guy who also like to hang with friends. I think he could have had about 3.8 in HS if hadn’t played Varsity.
He’s got a 3.2/3.3 GPA at McGill/Desautels U1, and has worked really hard to get that. I think he could probably get about a 3.5 if he wasn’t in a Varsity sport, but who knows?
His comment on McGill was that some of the tests were flat out unfair, testing you on things that weren’t even taught. I told him to liken it to Ninja school, where you can be attacked at any time.
Apparently it is common knowledge not to take any more than 4 core classes in any one semester, and to take one “bird course” to pump up the GPA. He has taken that lesson to heart in the second semester.
It is not unusual for a grade of 65% to be around the class average on tests. In extreme, but not unheard of cases, the average can be in the mid 50’s.
I know that U of T, and UBC are similar. Waterloo Math/CS, also. It can depend on what faculty you are in, for sure, but don’t expect a walk in the park just because you are in the Arts.
These comments have been very helpful - thanks to all. My student’s experience has been closest to the last reply. He is a self-motivated, independent worker but has found it difficult to get access to professors, TA’s often do not have the communication skills needed to help the students and some of the tests are way off anything discussed in class, or have trick questions. Many others in his discipline have reported similar problems. From what I have heard and observed from students, I think the university has grown exponentially and its services, especially to undergrads, may have not grown with it. Experiences may vary widely depending on the course of study etc. My student is really enjoying classes and working hard. Hope the whole experiences turns out well. But the university needs to start paying attention to some of these undergraduate needs - it should not be so hard to access professors or TAs, get help etc.
My son mentioned situations like this when he was in Desautels. Tests often required students to synthesize and expand on what was covered in class and the textbook. In management it was often applying that to a case situation on the exam.
I have read complaints from students here on CC that at their colleges the exams require them to merely regurgitate what they have memorized. They feel that they are not challenged. This would vary among disciplines and the level of the course obviously.
As for faculty communication skills I am assuming that this refers to international faculty and TA’s in particular. Foreign accented faculty goes back over a century, especially in STEM fields In the past the accent was likely German or east European. Today it is most likely Asian. I agree that universities need to emphasize communication skills in selecting faculty and TA’s.
@DowntownMom I don’t think McGill has grown much over the years, and certainly not exponentially. Maybe if you are talking about a faculty like CS, but that is true almost everywhere.
@TomSrOfBoston My wife(McGill Med) and I believe that you have to use everything you can to do well, including outside reading and learning, asking older students in the same faculties for pointers/notes, and basically being aggressive in your approach to learning. My son was back for break and talking to his HS classmates who who are in the well regarded business school at the U of MN, and the rigor appears to be far less than at Desautels. His last comment on the matter, after a tough mid term, was,
“That’s the way it is, so I’ve got to learn to deal with it.” Kind of an adult type of statement.
In spite of all that, S1 is enjoying the challenge that is McGill and Montreal. Quite excited to move into his apartment in the Ghetto for the second year.
@57special My son is a U1 in the Faculty of Arts (Economics). His two closest friends from HS are at Middlebury and Bowdoin. The three of them were talking one evening on our patio about college. In the end, they agreed that the sheer volume of work and rigor my son experienced at McGill is much greater than what they experienced. My son’s view is much in line with your son’s. He seems to get when he is shooting for a B+/A- versus a B-/B in a class. I know the grades frustrate him at times, but he gets that it is just the way it is.