<p>My son is interested in Reed and I agree that it sounds like a great place for certain types of kids. But I'm concerned about the numbers that show only 46% of the students graduate in 4 years and a total of 67% graduate in 5 years (according to Peterson's Guide). This is way below most of the other top colleges (except schools like Hampshire and Bard).Does anyone know why these rates are so low--is it because kids don't pass that junior year qualifying exam? or because they don't complete their senior yr thesis? I'd like my son to go to whatever school feels right for him (assuming he is accepted) but the reality of possibly paying for more than 4 yrs of college makes me hesitant about Reed.</p>
<p>Peterson's is several years out of date. As of the last Common Data Set (CDS), Reed's 6-year graduation rate (which is the standard that most people use for comparison) was 73%. It has been rising in recent years, and the current president has focused attention on it. (For the latest CDS, see: <a href="http://web.reed.edu/ir/cds/index.html%5B/url%5D">http://web.reed.edu/ir/cds/index.html</a> .)</p>
<p>As for why the rate has been low, I don't think there is a single accepted explanation, but here are some possibly contributing factors. (1) Until recently, Reed's acceptance rate was pretty high (even if the applicants were self-selective) and this meant that Reed often accepted some students who were higher risk (e.g., the classic "underachiever" with high SAT, modest GPA); (2) Reed's financial aid support was modest and often didn't meet the "need" of families and students, which, however, is one aspect that the current president has also focused on and has had some success in addressing by building endowment support expressly dedicated to financial aid; and (3) Reed's program is demanding, and many students underestimate this when applying (note that about half of all those who do not finish in 6 years leave after the first year), perhaps in part because the students never visited Reed before enrolling or only applied as a backup.</p>
<p>Of course, I went to Reed oblivious to all this, yet here I am as living testimony that you can graduate in 4 years.</p>
<p>To add to Mackinaw's reflections: 4) For many years, support services for students at Reed were underdeveloped at best, a function of the sink-or-swim mentality that pervaded the culture (fortunately, the school has made great strides in this area over the last ten years or so); 5) Reed is intensely distinctive, a stange brew of contradictions; combine a rigorous, conservative, almost restrictive academic program with a liberal, free-wheeling social scene and you have the makings of a place that can be difficult for some folks to negotiate.</p>
<p>Thanks for your insights. Mackinaw, it's interesting that as a student at Reed, you weren't even aware that it's graduation rate was low. In the Nov. 2005 Atlantic article about why Reed doesn't participate in the US News & World Report rankings, the president of Reed wrote that not participating gave them the freedom to worry less about retention and graduation rates. (this was just one of the advantages he mentioned of not participating) He wrote: "Rewarding high retention and graduation rates encourages schools to focus on pleasing students rather than on pushing them." He went on to describe the rigorous Reed program (which may not always "please" students, including the qualifying exams, senior thesis, heavy workload, and uninflated grades, as well as some other things.)</p>
<p>I've read that Reed students may need to take additional courses or change majors if they don't do well enough on their junior yr qualifying exams. (I'm assuming this would delay graduation) You don't remember anything like this from your days at Reed?</p>
<p>my daughter called me to tell my she turned in her senior thesis! :) :) :)</p>
<p>She did have to take one year off to retake one semester of organic chemistry.She didn't change majors, and she did pass her qual, but organic, particulary the intense way Reed dictates it- is a bear.</p>
<p>Her profs were generally quite supportive, and while a few of her friends, graduated a semester or so behind schedule, and a couple did transfer after freshman year ( not so much for academic reasons, but because they wanted to conserve financial resources for graduate school), most of the students in her freshman dorm graduated on time.</p>
<p>Students @ Reed are frankly pretty smart and they may have been able to get through high school without needing much support.
But they find in college, tutoring, prof hours, study groups, etc, can be very useful,and at Reed could be very important to doing well, or even hanging on.
It can be a lot for some kids to recognize they need help, even from a study buddy. Not saying that , that is necessarily the reason for the anemic graduation on time rate, but learning where to find info and to actually get it, can be pretty useful.</p>
<p>Is organic chemistry a required course? What did she do--retake it at another school and take off the whole year?</p>
<p>NJ Mom, extremely few Reed students failed the junior quals. I can't recall whether any did in my class, but certainly some may have. I view that exam in retrospect as akin to the comprehensive exams or prelim exams that PhD students must pass, in the sense that most students pass these exams but they help students to stay focused and to integrate what they're learning in different courses.</p>
<p>We were aware that some kids left Reed before graduating. One of my suite-mates in freshman year left after that first year. He could do the work but he really didn't "fit" there. (I have a story about him that I tell my own students, but needn't get into that here.) A few others whom I can recall leaving decided that after two years they had gotten a lot of what was special about Reed -- the freshman and sophomore required humanities courses (equivalent to roughly 6 semester-long courses in the classics and great books -- "Western Civ" at that time). I know one who transferred to Stanford so that he could go into Chinese studies. I know another who transferred to Berkeley. </p>
<p>So it's not necessarily that these admitted students who don't finish Reed can't handle the academic demands. They may just decided to move on to another school. My guess is that even nowadays most of the Reed students who do not graduate do not become true "dropouts" who don't finish college; they just change schools, or they take a break to find themselves (or to find money to continue their schooling) and in some cases come back to Reed and in some do not. But of course there's that famous case of Steve Jobs (co-founder of Apple Computer), who really did drop out of Reed, though I think he's since earned an honorary degree there.</p>
<p>When I started at Reed, my older brother -- a year ahead of me -- was attending UCLA. And if I recall correctly, a whole lot of freshmen in those days had to take English 1A, commonly referred to as "dumbbell English." And I also recall (perhaps inaccurately) that there was a high freshman flunk-out rate at UCLA. So the idea that the fact that you were admitted to college was no guarantee that you'd graduate didn't seem unusual to me.</p>
<p>I do know that a few kids had trouble finishing their thesis. And one student from my era who attended the Reed reunion last summer told his story that since he missed the thesis submission deadline, he wasn't allowed to graduate with his class. I have a feeling -- but it's just a feeling -- that the thesis was more of a hurdle to finishing than were junior quals. But both of these, especially since they were universal requirements, not just things that, say, only "honors" students would have to complete, doubtless account for some of Reed's attrition.</p>
<p>Reed is a demanding place academically. But I think the fact that it doesn't emphasize grades (grades are kept as a matter of record -- for a transcript -- but are not routinely reported to students) helped to foster a cooperative spirit among students. I think that in its own way, the fact that Caltech grades certain freshman courses and a fair number of elective courses on a pass-fail basis -- in the context of an extremely talented student body experiencing an extremely demanding curriculum -- also fosters a spirit of cooperation there and helps to reduce students' anxiety about how well they are doing (though Caltech has an elevated attrition rate among the elite universities). The point I want to make is that the fact that the curriculum may be demanding does not foster a high degree of competitiveness at either Reed or Caltech. And I would speculate that the grading systems have something to do with this.</p>
<p>I have posted elsewhere- but a year of
organic chemistry is required for biology majors
D has math and other learning differences, but she found enough support at Reed to not even consider changing her major
However- I believe not routinely getting her grades, made things more diffcult. Because she asked questions, had good communication with her profs, and got good feed back on labs, she apparently thought she was doing better overall than she was.
SHe was hanging on there, but then the final spring semester did her in.( actually it was just the final)
Because it wasn't financially feasible for her to only take organic, and it wasn't even a consideration to take it at the same time as she was writing her thesis, she and the college decided it would be acceptable to take it elsewhere.( it also wasn't a consideration- for her- to transfer- she wanted to finish @ Reed)
What she did was take the whole year long sequence over ( my suggestion) while living at home and working in a science based after school program.
She also used the opportunity to take some other science courses that Reed didn't offer/she didn't usually have time for.
Reed approved everything before hand, and she continued to get encouragement from her ochem & other profs at Reed.
Because we live in the Northwest, it still was feasible to go visit and to have friends come up here and visit, so she still kept a strong connection to Reed.
Neither I nor my husband have attended college & while we tried to be supportive, I think we really had no idea of her work load, especially at such a challenging school.There are things we could have done differently in retrospect, but I agree with mackinaw that few fail their qual. Even the students I have known who were double majoring, and had two quals, and possibly could have done much better on one, had a chance to do it over and prove that they were ready for the challenge of senior year.
I have known students that changed their majors and stayed at Reed, but it wasn't because of difficulty, but perhaps the small size of dept, which can be a issue.
But it has been a good place for her- she likes it so much, she is staying through the summer to work on some projects, and plans to stay in Portland.
I think if it sounds intriguing to students, it is worth a look, you will be able to tell or not in many cases if you are a * Reedie *</p>
<p>emeraldkity4 and mackinaw, your comments have been very helpful. It seems like quite a few reed students take time off, either because they just need a break or for reasons similar to your daughter, emeraldkity4. I guess when the time comes, my son will take it all into account and decide if he wants to apply.</p>
<p>emeraldkity4 - big congrats on your daughter turning in her thesis...!</p>
<p>My son just called to tell me what a great time he had at Renn Fayre and that the year has been 'worth it'. </p>
<p>He struggled big time last semester and during Christmas break he mentioned possibility of transfering due to the intense workload. I told him to finish the year and we'd talk about it. About half way through the break, he started to talk about Reed and by the end of the break he was chomping at the bit to go back. </p>
<p>I asked him if he wanted to transfer and he said no way. In fact he was excitedly telling me which classes he hoped to take next year.</p>
<p>mackinaw, I seem to remember coming across one of your posts that said you have a son at U of Chicago. (If this is wrong, pls disregard this) Did your child consider Reed vs Chicago? if so, why did he choose Chicago vs Reed? My son has also mentioned an interest in U Chicago.</p>
<p>My son graduated from Chicago. He was also admitted to Reed and a couple other LAC's (Williams, Carleton). For him, the main appeal of Chicago, beyond its "intellectuality," was Chicago the city. He's a huge baseball fanatic, and his current job is in fact writing about and doing statistical analysis on baseball: <a href="http://www.baseballprospectus.com%5B/url%5D">http://www.baseballprospectus.com</a> ). And he liked the city in many other respects as well. After visiting, he thought Williams too isolated and too jocky; he never visited Carleton but would have checked it out directly had he decided against Chicago, to which he made his first formal visit on "accepted student's day." He visited Reed a year before, accompanying me at an alumni college affair (read the classics for a few days), and he liked Reed's overall environment but I think he wanted a bigger city and, of course, a "major league city."</p>
<p>When you say he "read the classics for a few days," was this to see if this was the type of thing he would like reading because of Reed's requirements?</p>
<p>No. Each summer, for a few days prior to the annual reunions, Reed runs an "alumni college." We more or less do what a Reed freshman might do for a few days in a Hum 110 course -- read some primary works, hear a lecture or two, participate in a "conference" (seminar) for scholarly discussion and debate. It just happened that the year my son accompanied me and my wife, the subject covered several Greek plays. In some other year, the subject could be something else, such as medical ethics or health equity or whatever.</p>
<p>Although my main purpose was to go to my reunion, this turned out to be a lot of fun. How many times in your life are you going to be discussing "Lysistrata" at breakfast with your spouse and child? (We were reviewing our readings prior to the day's lectures and discussions.) We all enjoyed this experience.</p>
<p>freshman year my older D was reading Lysistrata-
( I had never even heard of it)
the copy that Reed was using was quite- modern- :eek:
but it gets better.....
my younger daughter was attending a K-12 school, her dance class was canceled and the three 6th graders were stuck in the drama production the high school was doing... you guess it, the Lysistrata.
Thankfully, they had a "cleaned up" version</p>
<p>they are using the "cleaned up" version nowadays. but I read the modern one. highly enjoyable.</p>
<p>lysistrata conference- that was a fun one.</p>
<p>mackinaw, the alum college sounds great. Anyway, looks like chicago worked out well for your son.</p>
<p>emeraldkity4, do you think the type of thing that happened to your d happens often--kids thinking they are doing better than they are, based on discussion/comments from the profs because they don't see their actual grades? (it's almost like you don't know you're failing until it's too late?)</p>
<p>It's hard to generalize, but anecdotally:</p>
<p>We went to one of the admitted students receptions where an alum said that when she finally looked at her grades, they were lower than she expected.</p>
<p>On the other hand, we got our D's grades, she elected to look at them, and said they were about what she expected, based on profs' comments.</p>
<p>Students are specifically told when they are doing C- work or worse.</p>