<p>"Because there’s a benefit to the whole community in having an affordable quality education that’s available to the whole community. "</p>
<p>I am all for community colleges.</p>
<p>State U’s, a fortiori State flagships, are not open to the whole community. Try the UVA forum, for a taste.</p>
<p>I believe university graduates are a benefit to society. But that is just as true of graduates of private schools, of any particular level, as it is of their state counterparts.</p>
<p>Yet there is panic about the prospect of some unspecified bailout for student loans, often from the very same people who boast about the good deal they get at a state U.</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad - After sending my kids to private school K-12, I am thrilled that my son is going to our state flagship. I’ve paid a lot of taxes over the years, so I’m happy we are benefiting from the public university system. Not everyone in our state is going to attend the state flagship, but there are many other options for state schools. If folks choose to send their kids to private universities instead of a public university, do you see that as different than when people send their kids to private K-12 schools?</p>
<p>they are comparable issues in some ways. I have always thought that the voucher system for k-12 was not intrinsically unreasonable.</p>
<p>There are two reasons that a public k-12 sytem makes more sense than a public university system. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Public schools arguably are places where we shape values, integrate immigrants, etc, etc. I do not believe state Us, even community colleges play that role. </p></li>
<li><p>There are intrinsic economies of scale to both K-12 and universities. No local area (other than the densest urban areas) can really have more than 2 or 3 multiple k-12 schools in the neighboorhood (adjusting that neighborhood HS draws from a larger area than a neighborhood Elem school) Ditto for local universities. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>but large numbers of people are willing to add to competition/variety by looking at colleges that are much further away. The main obstacle is generally cost, which is lower for commuters. But my kid cannot commute to charlottesville or blacksburg, so why not look at Rochester, Boston, troy, or chicago? </p>
<p>K-12, though, the families that will send their kids far away are few. Ergo, K-12 is more of a natural monopoly/oligopoly. </p>
<p>granted there are grey areas - my DD is graduating from a magnet that gets kids from almost an hours drive away.</p>
<p>"After sending my kids to private school K-12, I am thrilled that my son is going to our state flagship. I’ve paid a lot of taxes over the years, so I’m happy we are benefiting from the public university system. "</p>
<p>I do not begrudge you your choice. At all. We looked at W&M. If DD had been a different kind of child, we might have more strongly encouraged her to pursue UVA or VTech. Our choice was OURS, based on our situation. </p>
<p>I merely ask that folks who made your choice, do not engage in certain kinds of rhetoric - not advice, thats fine, but rhetoric - that some here engage in. </p>
<p>I MAY personally suggest that my state legislature prioritize K-12 education, or social services, or even the community colleges, over the State U’s, but thats hardly radical, now is it?</p>
<p>“Not everyone in our state is going to attend the state flagship, but there are many other options for state schools”</p>
<p>Not everyone is going to any given private u either. I was responding to someone who apparently thought that the State u provided universal access in a way private schools did not.</p>
<p>instead of the current system, we could have private u’s, plus community colleges.</p>
<p>Or private Us, plus the regional campuses of state Us, plus comm colleges. </p>
<p>The schools that are most often held up as alternatives to elite or semielite private schools in discussions here, are NOT open to all.</p>
<p>Note the chain of responses - the post I responded to, was a response to my thread, which specifically addressed state flagships.</p>
<p>In the state of South Carolina, I’m sure that Clemson gets less than 1/4 of its funding from the state government anyways so not a lot of your tax dollars are going towards funding state universities anyways, so what’s the big deal? Every year, funding gets cut so that pretty soon state universities are gonna have to head towards privatization.</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad -Your responses make sense to me. Private school was a choice we made. I was never angry about paying my taxes and not getting the benefit of public school. I hope we see the public K-12 improve and offer all children across our country a better and equal education. I’m not really on board with all your thoughts on public universities, but that’s okay… </p>
<p>College Debt - I’ve posted on other threads about this topic. We were the owners of approximately $120,000 in debt after my husband finished med school. We’re still paying it back and he’s 52. I don’t know how graduates can enter low paying fields with that kind of debt. There will be lot of sacrifices. We’re lucky; we could dig ourselves out of that big hole. Maybe high schools should provide mandatory financial seminars for students applying to college. It’s obvious not all parents are talking to their kids.</p>
<p>I think we also have to remember how much the financial crisis is impacting public institutions.</p>
<p>This year the computer cap on seminar classes (actually all our classes at the community college I teach at, even Bio 101) was increased by five. Doesn’t sound like much? Well, if you’re me and teach four or five or six classes (depending on the semester) and seven papers are required for each student in composition that’s potentially an extra 210 papers each semester. </p>
<p>I can guarantee that our weakest writers will not be getting the help they need.</p>
<p>Perhaps a school like Simmons is a place where a student will see a return for their debt. The name of the school may not carry weight, but the writing skills (for example) learned may.</p>
<p>The problem as I see it is no different than the housing crisis that was created because everyone in the process, except the buyer, had an incentive to say, “go ahead, it’s OK.” Only the consumer (student and/or parents) can say “No” If anyone else says no, they are restricting access to college or killing a dream or condemning a young person to a lifetime of lesser wages. No one within the system wants to be the bad guy, and that often includes parents. Fortunately there are people outside the system who will counsel against taking on too much debt to finance a college education. Nowhere is more practical advice to be found than on CC, especially the Financial Aid forum.</p>
<p>I have a dear friend who has been going through a terrible time with her husband, family,business, home, finances. The bottom line is that they have NO money. They are really in trouble that way. Husband in deep depression and can’t/won’t work. They may lose their home. Through all of this, their shining lights have been the accomplishment of their children. The graduating senior has done very well in school during this difficult time and has managed to have many music opportunities on scholarship due to her talent, personality and motivation. So of course, they want her to go to college. Go to the best college. </p>
<p>Home right now is a nightmare. Things are just not working out there. Clearly she would be much, much better off living on campus. They have an EFC of zero. The young lady is an excellent student, but with just slightly above average SATs. Great refs, great ECs, lots of challenges. So now what?</p>
<p>The only two schools that accepted her gapped. The pragmatic thing for her to do is to go to a local college and take independent music lessons where she could, from the school if possible. But that is not what they are going to do. They are going to borrow. How they will possibly pay it back, I don’t know. I am not referring to Stafford/Perkins loans. Those are in the packages.</p>
<p>But this happens a lot. Friends who have gone down this path are assuring the family that they are just joining one great big club. When doctors and lawyers are still paying off loans of that amount with low interest rates when they are hitting middle age, how the heck can kids who are not headed for such high paying careers even stand a chance?</p>
<p>IMO, educational institutions are the culprits on this, along with the attitude in the general zeitgeist that education is always worth the cost. How can folks who believe in regulation to protect consumers let this one get by- “Our school meets full financial need”, when they advise students to borrow from a third party to pay them, and budget it that way?
I can’t help but notice how articles like this estimate average indebtedness for college graduates. How about the half or so of student borrowers who end up in debt WITHOUT a college degree? I have yet to see people who make their livings in academia care about those folks. Of course to publicize their existence would undermine fresh sales of “the product”.</p>
<p>Higher Ed marketing looks more and more like a late-night infomercial. It promises wonderful things, and while it can and does deliver for many, but it falls short for the majority. When I view an infomercial, I either think “I don’t need/want that”, or “I can accomplish the same thing without buying that product.” There are other ways to succeed in life than going to Elite U. or even going to a college at all.</p>
<p>I don’t think that higher ed institutions are the sole culprits; they have lots of help from usually well-meaning but misdirected people and institutions, such as the government. The “general zeitgeist that education is always worth the cost” along with a demographic boomlet and greater government funding has succeeded in creating greater demand for a college education. When demand increases without a corresponding rise in supply prices rise. That is what has happened. It is not surprising that costs have gone way up. Massive borrowing has both filled the gap and fueled higher ed inflation. After all, what’s $50,000 in loans when the national debt is $13 trillion?</p>
<p>Parents, get pass the ‘bragging rights’ of the dream schools and help your kids chose financially realistic schools My D opted for a state college which had a great program for her major. This past winter she got a winter break internship within her field (as a freshman). The were 5 kids accepted for this internship - 2 from Cornell and two others from other ‘name’ schools. D did just fine and got another paid internship this summer with the same corporation. My D will graduate with about $15-20K in debt, a manageable amount. If she attended some place like Cornell, it probably would be $60-80K. Graduates of all these schools, whether Ivy or state U will be competing for the same entry level manager trainee jobs. Once you get that first job, it doesn’t really matter really where your degree is from. You are judged and promoted on your skills and abilities.</p>
<p>I wish these types of financial debt/student loan hardship stories would run in late winter and early spring when kids and parents are finalizing the college decision, when there is still time to consider the future financial implications of student debt.
O2B@C is invisible</p>
<p>But aren’t Governor’s schools like Thomas Jefferson the secondary school equivalent of a flagship? They certainly are NOT open to all. To use your logic, why should my tax dollars support them, when my kid couldn’t go there and his high school sure could have used the money?</p>
<p>One partial solution would be to require banks to give students/parents estimates for what the monthly payments will be at the time of graduation. This is particularly important for loans accruing interest from day one and compounding over 4 years. Banks should also require parental co-signatures for loans above a certain base level, say $20k-$30k estimated at the time of graduation.</p>
<p>I believe that loan policies such as these would prompt many families to consider more financially responsible college options such a CC for 2 years or in-state public colleges. It would also prompt second tier private colleges to lower their sticker price in response to a lower demand.</p>
<p>Instead of sticking to the niche of being a low-cost provider of the first two years of college credits, community colleges around here are starting new sports teams/programs, building dorms and rec centers, and offering free tuition to employees’ kids. It’s like they are trying to compete with private colleges at taxpayer expense.</p>
<p>When discussing culprits, I don’t know that it’s so much anyone in particular as it is the general college culture right now. You are convinced that the only way to avoid financial ruin is to go to college and get a degree-- even if doing just that STILL means financial ruin. My parents make too much money for me to get financial aid, I was bright but never quite good enough for scholarships, and my parents had no money saved for me. Nobody ever told me “maybe you don’t need to go to college right away” or “maybe you should go to work after you complete your associates.” Even gap years are HIGHLY discouraged in my district because counselors tell kids if they don’t go straight to school they’ll never come back, and literally the only way I could have avoided my ridiculous debt load would have been to wait until I turned 24 and could apply for financial aid as an independent. Everyone told me I was making the best of my poor financial situation by going to a community college-- and yet here I still am now. If I had chosen a different school to transfer to I could have managed 40k in debt instead of 50k, but then the option to commute for summer wouldn’t have been there and I’d have had to pay for an extra four months of housing, so that pretty much balances out anyway. It’s not like I took out huge loans to go to my out of state dream school or any madness like that, I had it beaten into my brain for years and years that going to college was THE ONLY respectable option for the year after high school and that THE ONLY way to live a stable and fulfilled life is to crank out that bachelors degree before I turned 21. And I don’t mean at some expensive new england LAC, I mean at Eastern Michigan University, or Northern, or Grand Valley-- all in the neighborhood of 20k a year and most of you probably haven’t heard of them, which still adds up to $40,000 you dont have and need to find when you get out of community college or apparently your life is a waste according to the high school counselors and the media and many others. It’s not just the highfalutin prestige hogs that think they have to go to NYU or their life is ruined that are ending up with 40-50k in debt. That culture causes all sorts of craziness in the students (all students, even the ones that go to community college and tier 4 schools), their parents, at high schools, and at colleges. I don’t think you can really blame any one group here when they are all drunk on the same stuff and making stupid choices. And this is really, truly happening at all levels of academic prestige for those lost in the middle class income gap-- going to community college and going to a tier 3 or 4 state school is not in any way, shape, or form a solution to this problem unless you’ve got 30-40k+ laying around. To suggest that it is implies naivety just as profound as those taking out the loans in the first place.</p>
<p>I’ve always thought that high school should include basic financial knowledge - balancing a checkbook, doing simple taxes, interest for credit cards and other loans. And I would definitely make my child look at loan payoff calculators before signing any loans too.</p>