<p>In fact, as a recent college graduate, I <em>wished</em> future employers would take a gander at those grades that I busted my butt for, but they were not interested. Ditto SAT scores: after all that sturm und drang and hand wringing about how important they are (and yes, they <em>are</em> important in college admissions ... no denying that!), no one ever asks again or cares what you got. In fact, I recall chuckling over a story in The Atlantic magazine which said something like "If you are still talking about your SAT scores when you are in your 30s, you need a life make over." :)</p>
<p>My clients always ask for grades - some want undergrad too - but everyone recognizes that you don't get into top law schools without a great GPA. My point is that, with regard to law school and employment thereafter, grades are grades and they don't care whether the "A" is in Sociology or Music Theory.</p>
<p>I'm glad that the subject has turned to law, because if I couldnt do something with musical theater, attorney would be my next choice of career. Both my parents are lawyers though, and they act as though its hard to get into a good law school as a music theater major.. </p>
<p>Also what about going on to get a psychology degree?
And I thought a BFA was better than a BA.. but are they the same? whats the difference? Does bfa just specialize in music and theater more?</p>
<p>What can I say? I've bumped my work hours to 18 a day at various times in my life so that I could both teach and consult. I've constructed psychological testing for HR departments, worked in organizational behavior using models and measurement tools of my own devising, and been paid for it by some of the largest organizations in the world. This isn't impressive. Many have done the same, and done it better and much more lucratively than I. I do think, however, that I probably have just a teensy, weensy bit more experience with large HR departments and hiring managers than the average person on the street, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.</p>
<p>If you think that a BFA in theater or drama or what-have-you won't get chuckles from HR people and hiring managers in most organizations, then feel free to think that. You may live in whatever world you would like to construct for yourself. If you get a BFA in theater and then go on to a master's in engineering or some other generally unrelated field, it might actually be an asset because it looks very interesting. But that's unusual.</p>
<p>If you go to law school, then you get a law degree, right? Firms hire based on the law degree. This is a non sequitur. I was not talking about advanced degrees in a different field. I was talking about a BFA. I believe that means "bachelor of fine arts," doesn't it?</p>
<p>Many employers look at college transcripts when they are confused about a major. They want to know what courses a student took. If the major is history, they don't care. They know what history is and generally what a history student studies. BFAs in theater are quite a bit more unusual.</p>
<p>I thank all of you for reminding me why I haven't posted in several months. I had forgotten. Silly me. </p>
<p>Kitkatt565: Generally, a BFA requires more focus on one's art and, as a result, leaves less time for branching out into other academic areas. Advanced psych degrees are very competitive. It's tough to get into grad school, but many people do it. I would recommend, however, that if you'd like to move into psych for an MS, you have enough math skills to do that first meta-analysis you're assigned to do.</p>
<p>kitkatt....for info regarding the difference between the two degrees, look at the post at the top of the main page for musical theatre that says :For those new to the forum" or something like that. There is a link there to the FAQ, which hsa an outstanding description of the two degrees.
Basically if you can imagine yourself possibly doing anything else than MT, get a BA. You will have more choices, and can still get good training.</p>
<p>Tarhunt, I wasn't saying I don't believe you. I am sure if that has been your experience, then, well, it's the case. I was commenting that things must have changed drastically since I was a college graduate coming out with a degree in English and courses up the wazoo in Chaucer, Hemingway and Hawthorne and my prospective employers, newspapers, couldn't care less what courses I took or what grade I earned: they wanted to know if I could go out into the field, interview people and write a good news story. I could, so I got the job. Perhaps I am naive here, but I would think that most of the kids on this board who are seeking BFA degrees plan to try to work in the theater, and not be hired for full time, permanent jobs in offices with HR departments. Of course, we know that the reality is that most of them won't be able to make a living acting, and will need to get other jobs. But right out of college, well, I would posit that they won't be going after the type of jobs you are talking about. And now I will shut up! :)</p>
<p>Not Mama:</p>
<p>I was responding, in my original post, to these assertions:</p>
<p>
[quote]
A question for the OP - why will your parents not be happy with a BFA major? Do they think it will limit opportunities in other areas? They may not believe it, but you can do pretty much anything with a BFA that you can do with an English, Psychology, Political Science, etc. major or you can go to grad school or law school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
I concur with cartera. I've spent my career in higher education and can say that the quality of the college or university is what is respected in the undergraduate degree. As specialized as an MT degree is, the university/college name behind it will matter in the "real world" of non-performance opportunities more than will the major for things like grad school and first job. This logic puts schools like CMU, Michigan, NYU, Northwestern, Indiana as worth considering if looking at other options after graduation. I think you will find the quality of academics even in the MT major to be challenging and rewarding in all of these schools, as well.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The idea that it is only the reputation of the school that matter is simply not true in my experience. If anyone has a doubt, go to monster.com, check out the listings, and find how many of them require specialized degrees as a prereq. That's the screening software. And it's to the the point of the ridiculous.</p>
<p>Also, the idea that one will learn the same general skills to the same degree in a BFA program as in most BA programs is simply not true, in my experience.</p>
<p>KitKatt - getting into a top law school generally requires two things - great GPA and great LSAT score. Some of the schools like to see excellent ECs, but most are happy with scores and grades. If you get a BFA and want to go to law school, you must pay attention to your GPA. There is a formula somewhere that predicts LSAT based on the SAT score. It is frighteningly accurate for many - it was for me and I took the SAT in the 70s and took the LSAT in the 80s. Law schools have no problem with one who works in between undergrad and law so going back to law school after a few years is fine. I got my masters degree and worked for 3 years before going to law school.</p>
<p>Tarhunt, I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree that a kid pursuing a BFA in, say, acting or visual art certainly will not be exposed to the kind of general skills that kids pursuing a BA degree will be. No question about that.</p>
<p>I thought since this is a Musical Theatre board some of you might enjoy knowing that Legally Blonde was based on a true story. The author Amanda Brown went to Stanford Law School for two years with her Bichon Frise "Underdog". While admittedly exaggerated and comedic, the entire movie does reflect my own law school experience - I'm convinced the Civil Procedure teacher was the model for the one I had. </p>
<p>Amanda dropped out of USC eventually graduating from Arizona State University. While she had the traditional Poli Sci degree, I would not be surprised if her character Elle getting into law school with a non-traditional major was based on fellow law students she met. I believe my own admittance to a highly competitive law school was based on "we've never had one of those before". It is pretty well known that getting into law school is easier if you stay away from a Poli Sci major and pursue an odd major as they love the diversity. </p>
<p>If you knew in advance you wanted to go to law school, I would suggest a BA and not a BFA. However, if you followed your BFA dream and after decided to go to law school, I wouldn't say it was impossible. I believe some BFAs have gotten into law school. I suspect they did have high LSAT scores.</p>
<p>It has been often stated on various threads that one should not pursue a BFA in acting or MT unless you can not envision yourself doing anything after college other than trying to make it professionally as a performer. BFA programs are intended to be professional training programs and are singularly focused in that regard. BA programs, by their very nature, are broader in scope but, with the exception of a few areas of the job market, from the perspective of future employment are really intended to provide a broad based education and skill set in preparation for graduate school and further occupational/professional training.</p>
<p>At the same time, a good BFA program is going to require and develop critical thinking skills, the ability to write cogently, highly developed time management skills and the qualities of self awareness and presentation that are transferable to other milieus. While in the past having a BFA might have been a detriment to obtaining employment outside of the field of performing, there are signs of change. In Philadelphia, for example, there is the Cordozza Center for a Creative Economy, run through University of the Arts in conjunction with area businesses and foundations, whose purpose is to develop ways to integrate an education in the arts with broader occupational (and economic) opportunities. In Philadelphia, there is a graduate of a BFA program and The Actors Studio, who having decided to move her career in a different direction, has built a very successful career teaching classes and courses in acting and court room presentation to lawyers. In addition, since there has been some discussion about law school, Temple University's School of Law makes clear on its website (and in its admissions practices) that if you have the grades from a reputable program and the right LSAT scores that they really don't care what you major was, including whether you have a BA or BFA.</p>
<p>So, in discussing a BA vs a BFA, it gets back to what has been said before. Think through carefully what your end goals are and if there is a flicker of hesitation about seeking a life as a performer, you are probably better served by a BA. Even if there is no doubt, also recognize that you better have another plan for actually supporting yourself while you pursue your chosen career path and think through what you are doing to make yourself marketable.</p>
<p>I'm really not "getting" this argument that a liberal arts BA degree is somehow "better" and makes a kid "more employable". That may have been the case 40 years ago, but not anymore.</p>
<p>The only downside that I can see to a BFA degree is the general "hothouse" environment that the kid lives, works, eats, breathes in for 4 years. Wouldn't be my cup of tea, but I'm not one of these MT kids! The notion that an undergrad BA degree in a traditional liberal arts area such as history, philosophy, english, psychology etc, makes a kid any more employable right out of college these days is naive. </p>
<p>Even when I graduated college MANY, MANY years ago there was almost nothing you could do with a BA in psychology, for instance, (ask my college roomate), unless you were willing to take the most menial, entry level positions. My own BA degree qualified me for, well, nothing much, unless I wanted to get a MA (which I didn't). I chose to retrain in a technical field (on-the-job training) and by the way, my BA had no impact -- those training me couldn't have cared less about what my degree was (or if I had one, frankly).</p>
<p>Graduate degrees to go with BA liberal arts degrees seem to be almost an absolute necessity these days to become employable in your chosen field. I can't imagine immediate employment happening unless the undergrad degree is somewhat more specialized, ie: teaching, communications, computer science, technology, journalism, etc. At least, that has been the experience of the young college grads I know. After getting undergrad degrees for 4 years they are either teaching, working in tech fields or in graduate school!</p>
<p>NMR, I'm curious. Do you think that a BA English major would be able to get a job as a reporter, these days (as you were able to)? Or would those reporting jobs more likely go to the more specialized journalism majors?</p>
<p>There are two plusses I see to getting a BFA from a strong program if the kid is very sure he/she wants to try it as a career. 1. It is a FOUR YEAR program; none of this taking 5 or 6 years to get a BA which obviously costs a lot more money in the long run. 2. The strong programs train their students to "hit the ground running". What the students choose to do with that training is up to the individual; some will be sucessful -- some will not. I venture to guess that's the same story with most degrees in most fields. There are no guarantees.</p>
<p>All that being said, I am a big believer in academics and getting as broad an education as you can, even within the parameters of a BFA conservatory program. In many cases, getting a minor in an academic subject is quite possible (especially if you've taken AP classes in HS which you can use to fulfill gen ed requirements). The best of both worlds! :)</p>
<p>Well, that's a wrap for me.</p>
<p>Anyone who wants to reach me can email me. I'll be glad to correspond one-on-one.</p>
<p>Bigismama: Most working journalists do not have journalism degrees. It's actualy preferable to have a degree in the area in which you'll be writing.</p>
<p>Graduate or professional school prospects are not the issue here. Obviously, high GMATs, GREs, LSATs + the necessary prerequisites will get you in regardless of major. The issue is the perception of employers when viewing a BFA on a resume for work in an unrelated field. Tarhunt's experience in both HR & as a working actor is certainly nothing to discount. He is sharing what he has seen: It can be viewed as fluff by prospective employers. Regardless of how highly you, or I, or our kids might appreciate the hard work that goes into earning that BFA, it may not be viewed positively by others. Just something to think about when making those school choice decisions.</p>
<p>"It is a FOUR YEAR program; none of this taking 5 or 6 years to get a BA which obviously costs a lot more money in the long run."</p>
<p>BiGismama -- I was confused by your statement above about it taking 5 - 6 years to get a BA degree... Could you please elaborate.</p>
<p>Thanks! :)</p>
<p>for being unclear; what I meant was that many college students these days seem to take more than 4 years to get their undergrad degrees; some change their majors multiple times, some don't take enough credits each semester to graduate in 4 years. Many colleges allow students to take 12 or 13 credits and still maintain full/time status; problem with doing that is after 4 years they still don't have enough credits to graduate, so it drags on and costs more. A neighbor's son took 6 years to get his undergrad degree (changed his major 3 or 4 times), another kid I know just changed his major for the third time and the parents are assuming at least one more year to be tacked on to his college experience. I hear this all the time, so unfortunately I don't think it's that unusual.</p>
<p>Thanks BiGismama. I don't think it is unusual either! I have met many people who end up taking 5 or 6 years to finish college. </p>
<p>I would be curious to know how those statistics plays out at other BA Musical Theatre programs -- I am now teaching in my second BA Musical Theatre program, and have found that most of the students I have worked with graduate within four years because they are motivated to get out into the world and start auditioning and working. So, I wonder if this may be a common thing between kids in Ba and BFA Musical Theatre programs?... or really any programs where the students are really focused and motivated toward a specific goal post graduation. :)</p>
<p>How about University of Cincinnati? It has strong, university programs and has a very strong MT program in its CCM school.The problem is that it is about as hard to get into as CMU and other major conservatories.</p>
<p>Back to the question of doing a minor at the same time as a BFA in MT, I am almost positive that you can't do this at Otterbein. S is there and he barely has time to sleep and eat with his class schedule and evening rehearsals. Even if he could fit other classes into his day I know he wouldn't have time to do any more homework. On the other hand, Otterbein does offer a BA in Theatre, which I'm pretty sure would allow for a minor in another area. Perhaps Dr. John (once he gets back from Unifieds) could jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.</p>
<p>There's very little wiggle room, for the BFA MT student (as it is already a triple major, or at least a major - minor - minor, or a major - minor - major, :p) BUT even in a conservatory program, there are usually some academic gen eds required.</p>
<p>I believe most schools wouldn't give you a general answer other than "it's possible to declare a minor". In other words, it's extremely individualized to the student's transcript coming in. If a student has a varied enough selection of AP classes and the university is willing to use those credits for gen eds, it frees up electives, to use towards a minor. I don't know if it would be possible to do without AP credits (be aware that the AP credits can probably only be used for gen eds; usually all the credits for the minor must be taken AT the university)</p>
<p>BUT, I want to stress it's very individualized, and probably not something which could be worked out ahead of time; as you would need to work with an academic advisor to even fit the academic classes into a VERY packed schedule.</p>
<p>And as MTAussie said, there is still that matter of eating, sleeping and rehearsals!! :)</p>
<p>All that being said, you can add Webster to your list of possible schools!</p>