***Greek Life a UVA***

I actually took the time to sign up for a CC account, compelled to reply to your message.

I would really encourage you to keep an open mind. My son is a first year student at UVA who has recently completed fraternity recruitment. He never drank in high school–pretty serious student, kind of nerdy.

My husband and I lived in DC for awhile, but both went to Michigan for undergrad and were in the midwest for professional school as well. We did NOT want our son to attend UVA. I had a lot of concerns with my impressions of UVA and UVA grads having lived in NOVA, doing a medical residency in the DC area. My concerns? lack of diversity, elitism, prevalence of Greek life, Southern culture. Mostly Southern culture and amusement with the thought of getting dressed up for football games, class, etc.

We spent THREE days in Charlottesville for DOL. (After a thrilling side trip to NYC). My son had interest in UVA and I really wanted to make sure he knew what he was in for, so to speak.

What did I find at UVA? Really smart, well spoken kids and much more diversity than I had imagined. I googled infomation about underrepresented minority retention and graduation rates and was very impressed. UVA was NOT what I thought going into the DOL experience. I approached the HILLEL and LGBTQ tables, asking about their experiences on campus–they had great things to say (although admitting Charlottesville is no Ann Arbor). I imagined those students might be somewhat marginalized on campus. If they were happy, that spoke to me.

My son has had a great experience to date. He has made a ton a very nice friends and found a balanced/nerdier fraternity he is pledging, because everyone was so nice, they are diverse, with high GPAs and not rabid drinkers.

When I ask my son is he happy to be at college, or happy at UVA, he reports both. He says he likes UVA because the kids are super smart, engaged, nice and welcoming. He loves the beauty of the campus and the weather :slight_smile:

this was a tough year with loss of Hannah Graham and the RS article, AND my son has had a great experience.

There are a lot of great ways to do college, and I would really encourage you to enjoy DOL. My son was there for about 36 hours and said, how are we going to tell dad this is where I want to go to college?

good luck!

I neglected to add that additionally, UVA was MUCH more generous than other universities when applying my son’s AP credits. He did much better at UVA with fulfilling his distributions and competencies than he would have at the other schools he was considering. He had them all done after doing he second writing requirement and non-western perspective class first semester. Now he is taking only classes that he is super interested in, which makes him very, very, happy.

Also, he really loves his classes and his professors. He is awestruck by his academic experience. Loves his classes, the assigned readings, classroom discussions, and his professors and TAs. Very rigorous academic environment, per him.

Again, we didn’t want our son at UVA. It was his choice after spending time at DOL. We are very happy for him. OOS student, knew no one at UVA, Northerner, not a drinker, and somewhat reserved socially. He could not be having a better first year college transition.

Additionally, my husband and I both had a great time at family weekend!

“No anecdotal evidence, please - just some controlled study showing happiness and retention are unrelated.”

The only schools retaining 99% of their freshmen reported by USNWR are Yale, Columbia and Chicago. Maybe the kids at Chicago are deliriously happy to be there, but they do refer to that school as “the place fun goes to die.”

Retention rates are highly highly correlated with admissions selectivity and the quality of the students enrolled at a college. UVA has a 97% retention rate. That’s the exact same rate as Harvard, Duke, Cal Tech, Hopkins, Cornell, WUSTL, Northwestern, UNC, UM, Cal, UCLA, Rice, Vandy, USC, Tufts, Williams, Haverford and Annapolis.

Retention definitely tells you a lot about how smart and motivated the students there are. Not sure how much it tells about other things.

I would not take advice from an admissions officer, as it is their job to advertise the school. Also, they’re not a student so they do not know what student life is like.

Many people that I’ve met do not like UVA, and like TV4caster said are only staying for the prestige of the degree. They feel trapped because if they transfer out they either lose prestige or they pay a lot more than they’re paying now, so that is why the retention rate is so high- it’s not an indicator of happiness.

UVA, besides the Rolling Stone article, is infamous for its lack of diversity, its lack of culture, and its greek scene. 40% of the school is Greek (after spring rush). Most Greek students I’ve met have been dull, lack individuality, and don’t seem smart (I’m surprised they were accepted). However, the Greek orgs receive many benefits over regular clubs, even though they’ve been proven to be the main cause of sexual assault, as well as discrimination.

Remember, UVA is the school where a white male student can abuse a black female student and get away with it: http://www.civilrights.org/hatecrimes/united-states/hate-crime-at-university-of-virginia-under-investigation.html (There have been many other hate crimes like this, not to mention the "not gay"chant at sports games).

boysmomohio: The diverse students you met at DOTL were there because they like UVA and want to support it… the many students who have had bad experiences would not be part of DOTL, as the university doesn’t want people to represent it badly…they’re not representative of the student body. I’m surprised your son finds it rigorous, as I’ve found it much easier than high school and barely study.

virginia87: UVA puts on a great show for its prospective students. However, this isn’t representative of what the university’s really like. Your son will be happy if he fits some of these criteria: He’s wealthy,or lacks individuality (therefore will fit in with a fraternity), or is involved in things such as UGuides and honor council, etc.

(Sorry if this is posted twice- one disappeared)

How anyone could not find fun things to do at UVa outside the Greek system is beyond me, unless you are waiting to be spoon fed your options through daily-updated e-mails or something. I thought I took advantage of speakers and concerts and plays and bands back in my day, but my 2nd year student is truly finding even more, as well as participating in several fun ECs. Just started a new volunteering stint through Madision house this semester, in addition to a long-term commitment. She regularly goes to parties hosted by various non-greek orgs, and occasionally a greek party too if friends invite her. The Downtown Mall is much more of a destination than it was in my day, with bands playing at the old theater and hockey games at the ice rink. A shuttle runs from Grounds to the mall (open-air pedestrian mall, that is) making it easy access. And to top it all off, if there is a more beautiful place than the Lawn to just do nothing on a beautiful day, I don’t know where it is. And how about that basketball team!

I was responding to a post that implied student happiness was at least the main factor (if not the only factor) in retention rates. I would never say that they are completely independent and unrelated, because they obviously aren’t.

What I am/was saying is that a lot more goes into retention rates than student happiness.

First, I've always found Dean J to be very straight forward in her comments, and not a PR hack. She really doesn't need any more applications to read than she already has.

Here’s a few current UVa stats:

Undergraduate Students by Ethnic Category, 2013-14:

6 percent African American
0.1 percent American Indian or Alaskan Native
12 percent Asian
5.7 percent Hispanic
4.3 percent Multi-Race
28.4 percent Minority Sub-Total

Note: Beginning in 2013-14, students could choose more than one ethnicity and are counted above in each category that they selected. However, the data in the minority sub-total and total rows includes unique students only.

8.8% of undergrad US students are non-US citizens.

Students come from 50 states and 147 foreign countries.

Among current undergrad students, there are 451 from China, 228 from South Korea, 103 from the UK, 90 from India, 79 from Canada, 47 from France, 44 from Turkey, and 39 from Germany. There are about 1,000 additional international grad and professional students.

Retention Rates
97.0 percent 1-Year Retention Rate
(entering class of 2012 returning 2013)
87.1 percent 4 -Year Graduation Rate (entering class of 2009)
87.4 percent 4-Year Graduation Rate (entering class of 2008)
92.4 percent 6-Year Graduation Rate (entering class of 2007)

http://www.virginia.edu/iso/documents/Annual_Report2014.pdf

My DD has several reasons for not liking UVA. Before I begin, however, let me say that she LOVES the Grounds and LOVES Charlottesville!

1- As Dean J said, she has had a tough time getting involved and, as someone who needs involvement to feel fulfilled, it has been difficult. Things have been a bit better the last couple of semesters as she has finally found a few activities that accepted her, like volunteering at shelters, schools, etc. When she first got there she tried out for all sorts of things and was turned down in one way or another for every one: student government; a capella groups, sororities; coed honor fraternities; UVA Tour Guide; etc. Later she was turned down for her desired minor despite it being a new program and her having very good grades. She was even turned down when she tried to volunteer at the SPCA because all the slots were taken the first day by people who knew enough to apply immediately.

2- She ran into a lot of problems her first couple of years with TA’s. Here is just one example: she took an Econ course with her roommate but they had different TA’s. On the first midterm DD got a D. Her roommate had gotten a much higher grade. When they compared tests they noticed that DD had several answers marked wrong while her roomie’s exact same answers were marked correct. DD’s TA refused to add points. There was one answer where she wrote one definition as something like “the price shoppers are willing to pay”. The TA said it should be “the price shoppers pay”. DD tried to explain that the phrase “willing to” didn’t affect the definition at all. If someone pays a price then they were obviously willing to pay it and it they weren’t willing to pay it then they wouldn’t pay. Eventually the head TA overruled DD’s TA, apologized, and added points. Instances like this where foreign TA’s could barely speak the language and were inflexible about subtle nuances were quite common.

3- She has been unable to find close friends. She finds the average UVA student pretentious and shallow. I have explained to her that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of students that she would find acceptable as friends. Her feeling is that because of the higher percentage of students who are not like her that it has been harder to find someone with similar personality traits than it would have been at a school with a more “down to earth” student body.

This semester she is studying abroad and has already found more friends in a month from other schools than she has at UVA in 2.5 years.

Edit to add that I am not sure about the other kids. Most of the time it has been a case of them asking me how my kid is doing and when I say she doesn’t like it they quickly add something like “really, mine too” or “mine was like that at first and eventually learned to dislike it a bit less” etc.

I think there are a lot ways to do college and its important to be happy and find the right fit.

As mentioned earlier, I felt compelled to sign up and comment because my preconceived biases regarding uva have not been supported by my son’s experiences.

We spent three days at uva for dotl specifically to go beyond the university sanctioned events. The vast majority of students I spoke to were not part of the programming. I sat for hours on different parts of the campus and approached random people. Literally for hours. I sat and stared at the student body.

While my son is a white Midwesterner, his friends at UVA are very diverse. The majority are not from Virginia, and about one half are not white. I was very impacted when I took one of his friends out to dinner over parents weekend. He is an illegal immigrant from Mexico–very bright, wonderful kid. One of my sons suite mates is from Taiwan and the other is of Nigerian descent but raised in London.

I just encourage people to keep an open mind. I think you need to go yourself and experience the campus. If you don’t like it (either then or after being enrolled), life is short and make a change! No place is perfect for anyone or everybody.

I have been pleasantly surprised. I think its a big enough place that you have opportunities to meet a lot of interesting students.

Dont forget, like dean j, Theresa Sullivan is also not a Southerner. Grew up as faculty in the Texas system and was former provost at Michigan. Agree with support of dean j-- I have met her in person. My impression is shes a straight shooter.

On the whole, I’d guess that half of the population of the state of Virginia is not really “southern”. The state is growing at over 15% per decade. A large amount of the population came from other states and other countries. Many families ended up in Va. because of past or present service in the military, which then brought them into other defense-related jobs. Virginia also has a very large population from India (including many working in high tech jobs in Northern Va.). People from El Salvador comprise one of the largest population groups in the state. Relatives in Augusta County (west of Cville) were telling me about the number of Russian immigrants in their area.

If an American student wants more of this international experience, they can choose to live in UVa’s International residential college on N. Emmett St. It is not hard to get in. I lived in a similar international student residence building in W. Philadelphia and really enjoyed the experience.

I would not recommend taking advice from an admissions officer: it is their job to advertise the school, and they’re not a student so they do not know what student life is like. A current student would be a much more accurate source of information.

Around 40% of UVA students (after spring rush) are in a fraternity or sorority. Besides the Rolling Stone article, UVA is infamous for its lack of diversity, lack of culture, and its fraternity scene. Greek life tends to divide the UVA community: it is normally full of the children of wealthy alumni, and is mostly white. Greek life is praised at UVA and they receive advantages other clubs do not, even after it was made clear they are a major source of discrimination and sexual assault. Most people in the Greek system lack individuality and are very dull, and I’m surprised they were accepted to UVA. Remember: UVA is the school where a white male can slam a black girl’s head into the steering wheel and not be punished: http://modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=348:uva-student-council-president-candidate-assaulted-&catid=39:hate&Itemid=56

Many people I’ve met here do not like UVA and are only staying for the prestige of the degree, because they feel trapped. That is why the retention rate is so high: People dislike it but aren’t able to transfer because they know they’ll either lose prestige or have to pay a lot more. The people who like it tend to be fraternity/sorority, Uguide, and honor types that you’re likely to encounter on trips here.

Virginia87: UVA really tries to attract people to the school by showing them the Rotunda and Days on the Lawn and tours and night sleep-overs and other things, but that is not representative of what the university really is like for an average person. Your son will only like UVA if he fits some of these criteria: He’s wealthy, white, and lacks individuality and therefore will fit in well with a fraternity.

Northwesty: I’m surprised that your son things UVA is rigorous, as I’ve found it much easier than high school and barely study. The students at the tables at DOTL are not representative of the school. They are there because they like the school and therefore are involved. The many people who do not like the university would not come to DOTL to help…

@Antsovergrass, UVa is not a school where executive level leaders are pressuring the admission office to increase applications or hit certain admit rates. Those are the schools where admission officers because salespeople, promising the moon to every applicant. I want to make sure students have the information they need about UVa to make a college decision. There is always more to learn, but after 10 years, I have a pretty good handle on what UVa is like. :slight_smile:

FWIW, the ~500 DOTL volunteers are representative in that they come from all different schools within the University and are from all over the country. Clearly, it takes a special kind of person to volunteer to make small talk with visitors at 8 AM on chilly, spring mornings. :slight_smile:

Antso:

Please do not use the Rolling Stone “article” as a reference source.

http://www.businessinsider.com/police-investigation-clears-uva-phi-psi-fraternity-2015-1

My son is a brother in a UVa fraternity. He is white, but by no means wealthy. I didn’t meet anyone in his fraternity who is southern in culture, for whatever that is worth. His fraternity is full of down-to-earth guys who remind me a great deal of the guys in my UVa fraternity many years ago (who I continue to communicate with on a regular basis).

Both my daughter and my son really grew to feel a sense of community at their colleges after they pledged a sorority and a fraternity. They each served as officers, and learned to take on important responsibilities. Among other jobs, my son served as the required risk manager to make sure that no one got hurt during their parties.

I don’t know what program you are studying, but I never heard anyone else at UVa ever say that any program of studies was not extremely challenging and time-consuming. (Oh, actually I do remember one fraternity brother of mine who was so brilliant that he picked up everything quickly, without many hours of study. He then received a joint MBA and a law degree in 3 years.)

http://www.virginia.edu/publicservice/organizations.php?letter=A

Here’s a website with a list of some of the types of organizations available at UVa. The link is to organizations that start with the letter “A”. There are fraternities and sororities oriented towards African-American students, Asian students, Latino students and many other groups.

Yes, there may be a few fraternities and sororities that fit the worst of the stereotypes. If you don’t like them, just stay away from them.

Point 2 in post #27 is true at EVERY school. The actions of individuals, especially when said individuals are grad students forced to do grading, is not a reflection of the university.

30% of student in Greek organizations is not excessive. My college was around that, and unless you get bothered by advertisements for new members and parties, there really is no impact on classes or the social life of non-Greek members.

Any student applying to college who is adamantly anti-alcohol and anti-drugs should seriously consider living at home and being a commuter student. It’s nearly impossible to avoid people who are involved with drugs and alcohol on most college campuses, at least on occasion. My brother was forced to become a commuter student because he got too involved with drugs and alcohol while he was living on campus (not UVA), and he managed to straighten up by not being on campus at night and on the weekends.

True, but there are also many universities out there that don’t have graduate students as TA’s doing grading. Those papers and tests would be graded directly by the professor. One could argue that there could still be subjectivity in the grading, but for the most part they would be more knowledgeable about the material. For this reason certain people, myself included, might prefer a smaller university that focuses more on undergraduates and does not use TA’s for this purpose.

In any case, I am happy to hear from Dean J or the admissions office at UVA feels no pressure to decrease admissions rate to a certain level and can be open with us on this forum, it’s really refreshing. I remember reading a thread a couple of weeks ago about how certain schools obsessively market their school, even to the point of mass marketing to students that would definitely would not get into the school. (cough UChicago cough I’m looking at you)

If a student really doesn’t want to have to deal with any TAs, they should probably pick a liberal arts college. However, from what I understand, even the most prestigious universities use TAs and have some large classes.

Also, at that college that promises the smaller classes and the lack of TAs, they may instead use part-time adjunct profs who don’t have doctorates, who are paid starvation wages and who are not even provided with an office.

Some of the grad TAs are a couple steps away from finishing their doctorate and are training to try to become professors. However, other TAs feel that doing the lab and discussion sections is a complete distraction from their research.

This is such an insightful point to make. Academics are constantly talking about adjuncts. I have an acquaintance who has been teaching one class at a smaller school for years and she doesn’t even have a Masters degree. I have another who has been interviewing for tenure-track jobs and is picking up classes as an adjunct until one comes through. It’s a tough existence.

Granted, some adjuncts are people with careers who don’t want to be on the tenure track. [The current mayor](Satyendra Huja - Cvillepedia), the urban planner who played a huge role in the revitalization of the Downtown Mall, is an [adjunct at the School of Architecture here](http://www.arch.virginia.edu/people/directory/satyendra-huja). I don’t think Huja has any interest in giving up his practice to be an academic. :slight_smile:

Do not go to UVA unless you are okay with an administration that supports organizations that promote racism and bigotry, and where a large portion of the student body thinks these organizations are “cool.” The most popular fraternities at UVA have no more than a token number of non-white brothers if any, and all of the members are flagrantly wealthy and show it at every turn. A huge part of fraternity rush is determining your financial status and then the rest lies on your physical attractiveness if you aren’t rich or well known enough. Not white? Not rich? Don’t follow the rigid UVA dress code? Not extremely athletic? You’re already likely limited to maybe 5-8 of the 30+ IFC houses, and joining a lot of these will immediately give you an outcast or loser label because diversity is not preferred at UVa. The worst part is the most prejudiced houses at UVa are the ones that receive special treatment from the University. UVa just hired a new dean of Greek life who was a member of a school fraternity that is well known for its long history of racism. Members of that same fraternity run the IFC at UVa. That house doesn’t have a SINGLE non-white member and hasn’t since I learned of its existence 10+ years ago. Sororities aren’t as bad in terms of diversity, but membership is still largely determined by financial status and physical attractiveness. People talk about all of these ethnic fraternities as some sort of evidence against this when it’s really evidence for it. People self-segregate at UVa like its the 1950s because of the culture that lacks acceptance and still promotes antiquated, bigoted southern ideas.

UVa administrators love to throw around the “30% Greek” figure, but it’s a much bigger deal than that statement implies. If you want to go out, drink, or be social in that regard, you will definitely feel the effect of being non-greek at UVa. Greek associations here are used to determine popularity and status as some sort of ultimate judgement of a person. Even if you don’t want to do those things, I urge you to look into schools with a more supportive culture. UVa has a weird vocal majority of extremely wealthy people for being a public state school, and this influences the culture in a very negative way. The “I’m better than you” attitude is everywhere at UVa, and it has been pretty much unchanging since my time there a while ago. I have witnessed people called racial and homophobic slurs and treated differently for not being white/traditional too many times at UVa. It’s the 21st century and I urge you to go to a school that acts like it.

There are a total of 60 fraternities and sororities at UVa. To claim that they are all full of homophobic wealthy racists makes you as guilty of the same blind stereotyping that you claim has made you into a victim of the Greek system.

There are some houses that do fit the stereotypes, but most do not.

Also, if a house is mostly pale skinned, that does not necessarily mean those members are racists. There is a certain amount of self-segregation that occurs by choice. Some members of minority groups who would be welcome in predominately white houses choose to join a historically African-American, Latino, or Asian fraternity or sorority. Some of those decisions may occur because of connections they have from their high school, many of which are racially segregated.

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