Grim literature in the high schools?

Parents Forum
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<p>there are a lot interesting thoughts on this thread.</p>

<p>As for the cannon, I don’t know. When I was younger I thought it “mattered” more than I do now. I thought it was important to get certain works included in the cannon and others excluded (or moved out to make space, I suppose). I loved the modern writers, but I can’t tell anymore if I loved them so much or just wanted to live in Paris between the world wars. Also, I can’t tell if I loved the moderns or the artists the moderns had as contemporaries. Hard to know.</p>

<p>I think Sheakespeare is important because we are a secular a country and Shakespeare is our Bible. Without Mythology, no Shakespeare. Studying him is mostly important, though, these days, in my opinion, because of the cult of originality, which is a false idea, and can be proven to be the bunk it is when one realizes Shakespeare never came up with even one original story in his career.</p>

<p>I like the idea of your class, Mythmom, though I don’t like the beats. I want to like the beats. I feel as if I should like the beats. But I don’t like them. They interest me more as people than as artists and writers, for some reason.</p>

<p>I would love a class that took the older book and the newer re-“vision” of the book like “On Beauty” and “Howard’s End” and “To the Lighthouse” and “The Hours,” etc… and talked about that, including one of Shakespeare’s re-visions, as well. I think that would be great.</p>

<p>Also, Magic Realism: Rushdie, Marquez, etc. Books that really deal with the way time does and does not work, and do it so masterfully, really appeal to my sense of the sublime, which is a subject for great literature, in my opinion, as much as the grim reality of suffering.</p>

<p>Do you ever teach Wallace Stevens? Mythmom? I wonder if the kids still love him like they once did.</p>

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<p>I just taught “Idea of Order at Key West.” I adore it. The kids couldn’t really get it, but when we talked about it, they did. They are going to have, “Poems of Our Climate” as a possible poem on their final exam (essay exam.) They get to choose from six, all poets we did in class but a new poem from each.</p>

<p>They chose it over doing an at-home paper.</p>

<p>They definitely don’t get “Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Blackbird.”</p>

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<p>

Oh, my. I loved The Glass Menagerie and Tennessee Williams is my favorite playwright. Did not like Beloved at all. </p>

<p>The only book on S’s HS list that he simply refused to finish and gave up on was Blood Meridian. I was curious and read a few pages but didn’t get far. They read a lot of grim stuff too, the worst of which was probably Owen’s WWI poem “Dulce et Decorum Est”. </p>

<p>Personally, I read a lot of stuff from various “canon” lists, and can appreciate the great writing even if I don’t always like the story itself. Sometimes I think a book is going along swimmingly and then I hate the “somebody has to die” ending, which can seem like a copout on the part of the author.</p>

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<p>What do I think about the canon? Absolutely yes, yes, yes.</p>

<p>And then new voices too!</p>

<p>Never either/or. Always and.</p>

<p>Hey – that’s a poem:</p>

<p>About the canon,
yes, yes,
Yes.</p>

<p>Never
either/or
always
and.</p>

<p>I got a PhD in English so I would have to read the Faery Queen. True story. Of course, I could have still avoided it, but I wanted a structure in my life that would reward me for reading all the things I would have found difficult to read without that structure. Like Pope and Dryden.</p>

<p>As one of my dear friends (Kevin Killian, a major San Francisco gay novelist/artist) says: “Nothing is wasted.”</p>

<p>We build on the canon. As previous poster pointer out (can’t see who on my current screen) out Zadie Smith built on Forster.</p>

<p>I love the canon, and I am a strong feminist writer. I love the writings of dead white men, and the writings of alive brown women and everything else.</p>

<p>Bring it on. It’s all the human race.</p>

<p>Now thinking the “canon” is the only thing with validity – now that’s something else.</p>

<p>I can tell you who no one ever wants to hear from: suburban, middle-aged, straight white women. My young black, gay friends have a much easier time being published regardless of the quality of the work.</p>

<p>Sigh. I always seem to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Such is life.</p>

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<p>I want to read you, mythmom. Can you self-publish on Amazon? I’m currently reading the memoir of a woman who sounds a lot like you. I don’t know if she plans to look for a publisher. It is fantastic. She sends it to me in installments. </p>

<p>someone gave me a stack of best books of 2012 (by women) for Christmas and there was one (yes, just one) by a white suburban female and about the same:
Dare Me by Megan Abbot. Maybe you have read it?</p>

<p>“There is something dangerous about the boredom of teenage girls” </p>

<p><a href=“‘Dare Me,’ by Megan Abbott - The New York Times”>‘Dare Me,’ by Megan Abbott - The New York Times;

<p>I read it twice straight through and thought it was one of the most interesting things I’ve read in a long time. It’s about cheerleaders :eek: but they are warriors, Spartans, lots of interesting imagery. The review says “Fight Club” but my mind never went there.</p>

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<p>My favorite English teacher was 8th grade. We read “the Hobbit”, “Huck Finn”, modern poetry (along with classics), Canterbury tales, Romeo and Juliet, A Separate Peace. The Hobbit translated into all of us reading LOR on our own. Huck Finn translated into many of Twain’s work. We had to read other books but were able to choose among many on a book list. Pretty eclectic list and we covered a lot of ground. She was great at summarizing books and steering kids towards topics/authors that they would enjoy reading. And we never beat anything to death–too many books to cover. We spent the rest of the time on grammar and vocabulary.
Our algebra teacher (how we loved him!) every Friday would have “bubblegum and storytime hour”. He would read aloud famous stories (I remember “The Ransom of Red Chief” best since he played all the parts), selections from “Catch-22” (so we ALL wanted to read the whole thing), scenes from plays and whatever else he thought we’d enjoy. He’d set up the scenario quickly and jump in with us following. It was fun to enjoy literature with no “deep discussion” and papers to write. And we learned the math too.
Someone mentioned abridgements–I think interesting selections from books can do more to stimulate reading than assigning whole (time consuming) books and dwelling on each one. Selections with summaries give the author’s tone and writing style, let’s you cover a lot of ground–history behind a book, culture of the day, etc. A great introduction to a lot of good literature that someday (or today) you’ll read on your own and if not, at least you know it even exists and who’s considered important and why. Like a movie trailer.
I think this approach meets QM needs (learn a little about a lot) and Mythmom can teach you much more about English literature when your more ready for the heavy stuff and want to tackle it on a deeper level.</p>

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<p>Dare Me sounds like the most depressing view of the world yet. I’d skip that one. It does sound like a female version of “Fight Club” (which is also interesting but not something I enjoyed necessarily).</p>

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<p>I’ve sort of been wondering if QM thinks our children need more positive, uplifting stories than what they are generally offered. That this might serve a higher good in various ways?</p>

<p>my point re. Dare Me is that although a white, suburban, middle class story (though really it is a universal tale, not really limited in time and space, just using those characters to tell a story told time and gain in different ways - imho and thus maybe deserves the designation “literary”) it seems to have gained a readership. I think there is still a market. I have no idea how to access the market.</p>

<p>adding:
QM - Thank you! I am certainly enjoying your thread.</p>

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<p>Abbot is an interesting writer, Alh. Did you ever read “The Street Was Mine,” by her? You might enjoy it. She’s smart, smart, smart.</p>

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<p>sylvan8798, re post #123, I think that Owen’s poem Dulce et Decorum Est is haunting. For the super-tender-hearted, it is also short. From the historical perspective, I think that the circumstances of WW II prevented Owen’s lesson from being fully registered later on. Since WW II, I would guess that young Americans who are taught any related line are taught Patton’s version instead–namely, let the man in the opposing force die for his country.</p>

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<p>Going back to the very young: After Mount Pinatubo erupted in a Mexican corn field, producing a tall ash cone in a very short time, a children’s book was written about it, ending with the “happy” thought that a volcano might erupt in your own backyard. This apparently terrified a lot of kindergartners, many of whose parents had no idea where their child’s sudden fear of volcanos on the back yard came from.</p>

<p>There was an article in the New York Times this past week on recently discovered archaeological evidence for cannibalism at Jamestown. Jamestown is often covered in the curriculum for 9-year-olds, and maybe younger. I am no fan of jingoism, but I think I’d give cannibalism a miss for that age group.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all of the posts on this thread–I plan to add additional reactions to comments later; and I have identified a lot of worth-while reading material (and a few things that I personally will stay away from).</p>

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<p>I think Harriet the Spy and The Long Secret are both worthy of being in literature classes.</p>

<p>Oh, I just remembered the book I hated the most from high school: The Great Gatsby. Man, that was a snore-fest.</p>

<p>P.G. Wodehouse would be a great choice for teaching kids about point-of-view, unreliable narrators, and staying true to the “voice” of the story. He has plenty of short stories to choose from, or books. As a bonus, he’s hilariously funny.</p>

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<p>You didn’t like Gatsby? I’m surprised, most people adore it, especially the writing style. </p>

<p>The only book I read in high school that I did not enjoy was Bless Me, Ultima… Felt plotless and irresolute. </p>

<p>Macbeth is also a bit exaggerated in terms of literary criticism. I found it to be rather simple, especially compared to Hamlet. Still a good Shakespearean though.</p>

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<h1>131 - I agree those are problematic books for the very young. On the other hand, my own kids probably would have loved them. And they are very decent grown ups. I think it is sort of the same idea as with Grimm brothers. Is Bettelheim right? Are these tales useful in some way? They scared me silly. I was scared to go to parts of my house in case that evil fairy was hiding and waiting. My kids found them exciting. I have no idea what all that means.</h1>

<p>poetgrl: thanks for the rec/Abott</p>

<p>adding: okay - maybe it is an important difference fantasy vs. real life, fiction/nonfiction for children. This didn’t really occur to me at first, since my own saw no real boundaries between the two till really rather late. That was probably due to poor parenting.</p>

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<p>I actually love Owens too, and that is not as graphic as “No Greater Love”. “Red lips are not so red as the stained stones kissed by the English dead.”</p>

<p>Teenagers fight wars, so they might as well read about them.</p>

<p>I love that quote about teenage girls. My favorite of my novels begins, “Jed always said there was no one more dangerous on earth than a seventeen-year-old girl.”</p>

<p>My 25 year old D is nagging me to self publish and has offered herself as editor. Thank you so much for the generous offer to read my stuff.</p>

<p>Owens was only 22 when he died, so he was barely more than a boy when he wrote these. I do think we should remember how much the young love horror movies.</p>

<p>As for waiting for “more serious stuff”, isn’t that a bit like saying Calculus should be put off to college because lots of kids aren’t ready for it in high school? </p>

<p>Perhaps classes should be selected in a different way, I don’t know.</p>

<p>It would have been a disaster for me. My friends as I read the bulk of our serious literature between 12 and 18 when we had the most time. In college and beyond Chaucer et al had to replace Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky and and and or I wouldn’t have the thorough grounding in Anglo-literature I do. Besides, it all meant even more to me as an adolescent.</p>

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<p>My son wrote a short essay for some college essay about music he loved Tschaikovsky, Apocalyptica (metal) and Johnny Cash all for the emotionality of their music.</p>

<p>I think Card is a great introduction to young teens to the world of sci-fi. Teens save the world! What’s not to love? I never think of him as a children’s book author since his books didn’t even exist when I was young, but I do think of him as someone who is fascinated by the way children can be manipulated by adults, which I think makes him interesting reading for those just beyond childhood.</p>

<p>I thought Bellwether was laugh out loud funny - having spent a bit of time on the periphery of labs. Blackout and All Clear seemed overlong to me. Needed an editor.</p>

<p>What I liked about the abridged Shakespeare my kids had, was that they did not change the language, so you had selected scenes bridged by summary paragraphs. It had the whole “This rough magic I hear abjure” speech. I am in general not a fan at all of abridgements. But the kids spent a lot of time learning to translate Elizabethan English into contemporary and enjoyed the idea of doing Shakespeare so much I think it was worth it. They certainly got more out of it than I did reading *Romeo and Juliet *in 7th grade. The infinitely better teacher may have helped though!</p>

<p>I agree with the original premise that many high school reading lists are overfull of grim depressing books, but I also think some of them deserve to be on the list. That said, I do think someone should step back from time to time and say, what’s the great comic novel I should present this year? How about a nice bildungsroman which is more uplifting than depressing? How about some genre fiction? My younger son loved, loved, loved the year he did mysteries. (I thought a year was overkill myself, but that wasn’t a choice.)</p>

<p>What I’d like a high school English class to do? Read some of the canon, so that you have at least a basic cultural literacy foundation. Read some of most types of literature (epic, poetry, plays, essays, novels in their various flavors etc.) Read enough fun stuff that students know they can read for fun too. Try not to ruin too much by hunting for symbolism and other stuff that by the end of high school my kids at least got really cynical about what English teachers want. Luckily they did lots of reading outside school.</p>

<p>I still remember my freshman English teacher floating around the classroom to Joni Mitchell’s “Clouds” talking about “sense pictures”. Then we went on to e.e. cummings, and some Psalms and Auden or the like.</p>

<p>I’ve thought that everything I’ve seen that Stoppard had a hand in was interesting. Unlike Becket which reminds me of conceptual art. Once you get the gag, so what?</p>

<p>I read LOTR (Tolkein) every year for 20 years, and adored it. The 21st time I realized it was not the best book in the world. Now I love it mostly for sentimental reasons, but the intentional epic style and the lack of interesting women irritate me.</p>

<p>As a teen I far preferred This Side of Paradise to The Great Gatsby. Now I think I should reread both.</p>

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<p>I found Gatsby very dull, probably because I couldn’t relate to any of the people in it and just didn’t care about them or their problems. I’ve found just the opposite–it’s on the top of a lot of people’s “hated it” list.</p>

<p>The only thing I found interesting was when Daisy(?) got hit by a car. And Gatsby being found in the pool, of course. I honestly don’t remember anything else about it. And I was not a reluctant reader, you know! I loved to read! But I just hated that book.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The folktales the Grimm brothers collected weren’t intended for children, though. Originally, I mean. They weren’t supposed to be cautionary tales to keep kids out of the woods or away from wild animals. They were simply a form of entertainment popular with the entire village.</p>

<p>The kids in the village would probably be there listening too, but they weren’t specifically for kids.</p>

<p>I wanted to mention that because that’s a common misconception. :)</p>

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<p>^^Right. Great point. So when does the concept of “children’s literature” begin?</p>

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<p>I took a class in college on childrens literature (affectionately known as “kitty lit”). IT was reading for elementary school kids. Cant recall exactly what was on the syllabus other than perhaps Little House on the Prairie, as it was decades and decades ago.</p>