Hi, My son is accepted to Grinnell College for Physics major and University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign for Engineering Physics major. I think that Grinnel provides a better learning environment because student and staff are close, but U Of I 's Engineering Physics is ranked #1 in U.S News. For U of I, I am worried that you won’t get close attention and help as in liberal arts school. Does anyone has any experience on these two school about their Physics and Engineering Physics major?
Your understanding is accurate. The biggest decision is whether he wants a solid undergrad engineering education or if he’s fine doing physics and getting a superb liberal education and then pursuing engineering in grad school. It’s a win-win either way. Congrats on your son’s terrific results.
Maybe @xraymancs can comment, he is a physics prof at Illinois Inst of Technology who helpfully posts here
Sometimes former students post in the individual student forums. Not that often. Mostly there are HS kids searching and parent, who may be alum.
Has he compared the course requirements at each college? I think he would be giving up a lot of depth and breadth to go to Grinnell but yes the classes will be smaller all the way through. I wonder if they don’t get pretty small in the physics dept at UIUC at some point.
Also why does he need a music major or a double major at all? What is the purpose of that vs taking the music classes you want separately? Which has more flexibility in the requirements for electives?
The answer depends on your son’s rationale for choosing physics as a major, and whether he is likely to change majors along the way. I’ll answer based on the assumption that he’s likely to continue physics study in graduate school and eventually enter industry or academics as a physicist. In this situation the level and depth of his undergraduate physics study will have a major impact on his follow up study and his chances at top graduate schools in the sciences. Ideally he would go to a college with depth in physics education, meaningful intern opportunities in physics, and more than a handful of dedicated and talented physics undergraduates. With the two choices available to him University of Illinois UB is by far the better choice. You’ll likely find that apart from introductory physics class size for advanced physics courses at even large universities is relatively small. You’ll also find a broad selection of advanced physics courses, and that even specialized courses are often offered every year. You’ll also find the presence of graduate students a major help, either in their possible role as TAs or simply because of their availability to discuss modern topics, and their research. You’ll also find lively dialog at seminars, etc.
I encourage your son to spend a day at each of the two colleges and attend classes much as a sophomore majoring in physics would do. The reason for “sophomore” rather than “freshman” classes, is so he would a sense of more advanced courses and that he would be around committed dedicated physics students.
But UIUC is 4th in total number of PhD’s produced. Plus, you have to consider just how many students at each school want to pursue a PhD. Over 10 years, Grinnell produced 338 PhDs. UIUC produced 2057. UIUC is much bigger, but a higher percentage of the student body at LACs are interested in pursuing a PhD vs. a big state school (where the vast majority of the students have a pre-professional focus). So while bigger UIUC would have more kids looking to pursue a PhD, it’s seems a bit unlikely that 6 times more kids at UIUC would be looking to pursue a S&E PhD than at Grinnell (even when you consider that UIUC has an engineering school but Grinnell doesn’t).
So another question: What are costs, or are they not a concern?
… this graduate ranking may not too be meaningful for undergraduates, but …
A great learning environment won’t meet your needs if it does not cover your areas of interest.
Grinnell does not have engineering programs. It won’t offer the same on-campus applied research opportunities you’d find at a strong research university, either.
Are these your only two options?
If they are, one possibility would be to start at Grinnell, then if it looks like it won’t meet his needs as he gets into his major, transfer to a strong research university with better undergraduate focus than UIUC (UChicago or Northwestern for example). That’s risky, though, because he might not get into one of those schools or get adequate financial aid as a transfer. Another option would be to work with Grinnell professors to find off-campus research opportunities to supplement what Grinnell can provide.
According to NSF data on webcaspar.com, between 2008 and 2012 (inclusive), 11 Grinnell alumni earned PhDs in physics. Among schools in the “Baccalaureate/Liberal Arts I” Carnegie class, that number is tied for 7th place (with Amherst, Bryn Mawr, Oberlin … and Lawrence). The numbers PurpleTitan cited may be from a different time window. Within that window, I doubt Grinnell would be very far behind.
According to IPEDS data (http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/datacenter/Default.aspx), Grinnell conferred 33 undergraduate degrees in physical sciences in 2008-9. 11 PhDs for a 165-student cohort (33 X 5 years) gives an adjusted Grinnell physics PhD production rate of 6.7%.
According to IPEDS data, UIUC conferred 177 undergraduate degrees in physical sciences in 2008-9.
42 PhDs for an 885-student cohort (177 X 5 years) gives an adjusted UIUC physics PhD production rate of 4.7%.
Compared to UIUC, Grinnell attracts a much higher percentage of its students to physical science majors (8% v. 3% degrees conferred, according to Common Data Set section J numbers). And then, the resulting Grinnell physical science cohort seems to be generating physics PhDs at a higher rate than the corresponding UIUC cohort. I’m assuming the rates of degrees-conferred are constant from year to year (which surely is not the case) … so take these numbers with a grain of salt.
However, I can at least say they are consistent with many others I’ve seen, in suggesting that selective LACs tend to have significantly higher PhD production rates (in STEM and other fields) than the top public flagships. Whether we should attribute this to selection effects, treatment effects, or some combination is not entirely clear.
re post #5: Grinnell does participate in the 3-2 program, so that makes the “transfer if it doesn’t work” scenario more doable. But, I would really suggest that your son talk directly to the Physics Department about his interests and concerns. This is not going to be a new issue for them, and they can help him understand what the learning experience at Grinnell would be and how that would translate into future options. These professors aren’t going to do a snow job on him: they want students to be engaged on campus; it’s not in their interest to present a false picture.
I do know that Grinnell promotes student research opportunities, funds internships, connects students to alumni both on and off-campus (the school has short-courses – for credit – on “learning from alumni”, as well as trips taken during breaks). Grinnell students attend professional conferences and often present papers as well.
The school also has an individually-advised curriculum. As a parent of a Grinnellian, i have seen firsthand how the professors work with students throughout their tenure.
To me, one of the benefits of a liberal arts education is that it gives students a chance to learn broadly, and then build on that foundation later with more specialized training. It’s harder to do the reverse later in life. High school kids often enter college with a major in mind, only because that’s all they’ve been exposed to in the narrow world of adolescence…
out of curiosity, I looked at the UIUC website, and it certainly looks like a fabulous place. That #1 US News ranking is for undergrad.
I saw that UIUC engineering lays out a sample four year curricular plan. Why not do a similar approach for Grinnell and see what the education looks like side-to-side? Maybe also lay out extracurricular and departmental activities as well – but for that, I would encourage you to talk to someone at the school directly, not rely on website only. There often are tables (lunchtime discussions), seminars, organizations, etc. that meet but might not be on the website.
The one thing you’d need to suss out, too, is how the courses compare in what they cover. I do know that Grinnell packs ALOT into its courses, so what might be covered in two semesters at other institutions, Grinnell might cover in one. I guess what that means is you need to look at the course descriptions, not only how the colleges name them to see what will be taught in a semester.
Since you said music is important, what about the options for that at these schools? I would include that in your plan above.
But, when all is said and done, the spreadsheet approach can only go so far. I know for my son, his final decision came down to perceived fit with the student body. On paper, there were other schools that made more sense, whether due to location or certain offerings. But, he also didn’t have quite as narrow a career interest in mind when he graduated high school as your son seems to, so that is different.
As a graduate of UIUC many years ago, I agree that it is a great place to learn physics. The classes will be larger all the way through, from the very large introductory physics courses to the medium size upper division courses (probably about 40 students). The faculty are all quite good but for most of them, research is the main activity and unless a student gets to work in a professor’s research lab, it is difficult to get to know faculty. I did because I grew up in Urbana Illinois and I knew many of the faculty children. When i was there, it was not encouraged that undergraduates get involved in research but I think that has changed and the big plus it that you can do research on a funded project alongside graduate students. However, the fact that there are more physics majors, means that it may be more competitive to find a spot in a lab. On the other hand, the larger program offers you the opportunity to take a lot of elective courses and the curriculum is complete as far as preparation for physics graduate school. If you are ahead in your coursework, you may even be able to take graduate courses and there is no better preparation for graduate school than having seen the course materials once before.
Grinnell, like many other LACs is an excellent place to study physics from a slightly different perspective. On the positive side, the student really gets to know the faculty and vice-versa. This close relationship can really promote the out of class learning. All LACs understand that undergraduate research is essential for students wishing to go into graduate school so there are plenty of opportunities and it is pretty easy to get connected with a faculty project. These projects are undergraduate-centric and there are no graduate students but the plusses are that there is a very close interaction with the professor. As for curriculum, the best LACs have a complete curriculum in physics but because of the small class sizes, the upper division courses are usually offered less often with two classes of students participating (for example, Juniors and Seniors) and there might not be as many (or any) physics electives available. Certainly there are no graduate courses. This could be a problem with regards to taking the Physics GRE, which is required by a number of Ph.D. programs because it is best to have completed most of the basic curriculum (including quantum mechanics) before taking that exam in April of your Junior year or October of your Senior year.
[ aside - I can’t avoid pitching schools like my own, Illinois Tech… ]
Just to complete the picture (I know that it does not apply to the OP), there is a middle ground in physics programs. That is the private Independent Technical universities where the undergraduate programs are small and students can get to know faculty well and also be involved in sponsored research programs with graduate students. These schools usually have a full core curriculum and the availability of graduate courses.
[ /aside ]
Back to the final issue of which to choose. The OP states that the student was admitted to the Engineering Physics program at UIUC. If the intent is to follow an engineering path, then UIUC is a better option. The Engineering Physics program will provide sufficient engineering courses to ensure that if he goes into a graduate Engineering program, there will be a limited number of remedial courses to take (if any). As you can see form many discussions on this forum, the 3+2 programs leave a lot to be desired and many students don’t make it through. With a Physics degree from an LAC, there will be a significant remedial course load to take to get into an engineering graduate program.
So, to summarize. if the goal is physics then either school will be fine and it is a question of weighing the “fit” and the pros and cons I outlined above. If Engineering is the eventual outcome, the UIUC is probably a better choice.
If the student wants to study Engineering, UIUC is a better option.
However, if the student wants to minor in music (or be involved in music), there’s basically no space for it in an engineering curriculum, and OP’s son may be better off with Physics.
If your son wants a college town and a large college population, UIUC may be a better fit - while the college works hard at providing entertainment of all sorts on campus, it remains rural.
Close relationships with professors and mentoring are encouraged at LACs (professors are hired because they’re able to involve undergrads into their research), so if that’s important to your son, Grinnell may be a better fit.
He should do an overnight - attend classes, meet with students and professors, eat in the cafeteria, read the campus paper, attend a club or activity, etc.
(Good questions to ask: what do you typically do on a Wednesday night? On a Friday night? Have you been unable to register for a course you wanted/needed? How many students in the … class - not freshman level, because obviously Grinnell will probably be 30 or 40, and UIUC in the hundreds, but perhaps at the sophomore level or senior level? Considering 2/3 of his time will be OUTSIDE of his chosen major, “tell me about your Freshman composition/seminar class” would also be important. “Tell me about your favorite professors.” …)
Thanks for all the great information. Xraymance confirmed my main concern about UIUC’s faculty-student interactions. At this time, my son prefers Grinnell College because he also wants to major in Music (He wants to major in Japanese but Grinnell only has East Asian Studies concentration) and take Japanese courses. Grinnell gives pretty good financial aids that will about to cover the tuition fee and I need to pay about $14,000/year for other costs. UIUC’s financial aid information won’t be out until mid March but I think I will have to pay at least $20,000/year.
If music major is “non-negotiable” in your son’s mind – at UIUC, it would be a major across two colleges, and could mean 5 years, I am guessing, to be able to meet the gen ed requirements at Letter &Science with a music major and requirements for major at College of Engineering.
For what it is worth, we always thought our older one was a LAC kind of kid, and visited Grinnell twice. He wound up at Wisconsin because he realized he wanted big school experience. While he is in Social Sciences and Humanities, he has had no difficulty developing close relationships with faculty, getting recommendations for internships etc., and, as a junior, many of his classes are 20-25 kids since he is largely in seminars now. Of course, we have no experience with upper level science or engineering curriculum. While the criticism about big schools, especially flagships, is that the faculty is there to pursue their research, and undergrads are an after thought, he has not found that to be true – he is working with faculty who are top in their field as a double major in departments in which UW is ranked in top 20 for graduate work. Again, I understand that when you are talking labs etc, it is a more complicated picture.
Congrats to your son, those are two great options and will likely come down to the visits – which environment just feels “right.”
With wanting to major in physics or engineering physics and wanting to major in Japanese and music…I would choose the option that allows him the most opportunities for flexibility in changing majors without having to transfer. Those majors offer little overlap. It sounds like he needs to be able to explore before deciding.
I think your son should choose Grinnell and explore a bit. With the tight, closely-knit environment between students and faculty AND the diversity of major choices and options (Your son wants to do music, engineering and possibly East Asian Studies–the East Asian studies can always be a minor, right?) an LAC would be a better fit.
If he goes through Grinnell still wanting to be a physics major and possibly continuing on with grad school to be an engineer or physicist, then transfer out. There’s honestly a huge difference between pursuing a STEM field or pursuing an artsy/humanities path. The LAC will give your son the best of both worlds on a campus where he’ll feel comfortable.
Plus the money is a huge factor too. Grinnell will be cheaper.
I did not mean to say it is impossible to work closely with faculty at a big school. it is simply necessary for the student to be active in looking for such opportunities, they are not thrust upon you. In any case, i always think that the financial motivation should be the deciding factor all other things being equal.
Grinnell does have no breadth requirements other than the limitation of the number of credits in any one department and any one division (division = science, humanities, social studies). So that can make fitting physics and music majors together (or one of these majors with lots of electives in the other) easier.
Grinnell’s physics major is described at http://catalog.grinnell.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=11&poid=1250&returnto=2501 . If he wants to go on to PhD study in physics, it would be best if he took the additional recommended courses as well as the required ones. Of course, he should check to see how often each physics course is offered. But if engineering is his main interest, it is not present there except as a 3+2 program, so it may not be the best choice.
