Grinnell vs U of Arizona vs U of Zurich for CS undergraduate degree

He will still be at the back of the crowd (among CS new graduates) because he will need a work visa and will have only a BA/BS (instead of the preferred MA/MS or PhD) degree. Grinnell versus Arizona versus Zurich would be a minor factor at most compared to the work visa issue.

Research Grinnell some on Reddit. This quote sounds about right:
“Grinnell is a highly-esteemed college that is very well-regarded among people who know a lot about higher education.”

And definitely not known by the typically man on the street (outside of Iowa).

But the top American software companies will have a disproportionate percentage of the former. Plenty of PhDs at those places.

But as @ucbalumnus noted, citizenship/PR status matters. Advice I would give an American may not be applicable to your son.

Agree that @PurpleTitan has offered advice that is not appropriate for OP’s son, but is worth considering for an American student.

As I raised the issues of visa concerns & graduate school early on in this thread, please consider attending the University of Zurich for an undergraduate degree before coming to the US. Both student & work visas should be easier–not easy–for one with a STEM degree.

And, as I noted earlier, reconsider Canada if affordable schooling options exist or for much easier entry on a work permit / work visa.

If the OPT rules do not change, your son would be eligible for 12 months, with the possibility of extending. Here is the link: https://www.uscis.gov/opt

Many international students do not find employers for the OPT, and consequently must return home shortly after graduation. Your son should contact the Career Centers and the International Student Offices at each campus and ask where the international graduates with his major have found work. He needs to know whether they have been successful or not.

Wherever he does study, he should make certain that he is prepared for a job in your country, and that his documents can be translated and revalidated there. Some students have finished degrees outside their home countries only to learn that they must repeat their entire educations in order to get a job after they return.

@happymomof1, the OP’s son won’t be working in his home country. It’ll be Switzerland, somewhere in the EU, Canada, or somewhere else abroad regardless (or he’ll be jobless, but that seems unlikely).

@PurpleTitan - Right now, the OP hopes that his son won’t have to return to Belarus. However, he needs to think through a back-up plan in case that ends up being what happens.

This is true for nearly every school.

I just did a LinkedIn search on Michigan Tech, certainly a school that would be on virtually no College Confidential poster’s radar. The top 5 employees for CS grads: IBM, Ford, Google, Amazon, Microsoft.

The top 5 for Grinnell CS grads: Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Epic, Accenture.

Getting WAY down the pecking order, Sonoma State: Keysight, Disney, Ciena, Google, FIS.

Now lets go to the blue bloods. Caltech: Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Intel. MIT: Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, IBM.

Finally, my son’s alma mater, Cal Poly, not mentioned once here, probably because they don’t offer doctoral degrees and as a result, aren’t ranked with them: Amazon, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Workday.

You don’t know much about my life. In my native Belarus last 26 years is dictatorship, misery and hopeless. My son was born 7 years after our dictator took power and he never seen anything except this in Belarus. Last 13 years I living abroad and building my life myself. Those from my countrymen who need warranties continue to live in Belarus with vegetable’s rights and vegetable’s future. They have warranties and can be confident in same life from here on out. I haven’t any warranties and in any situation can rely only on myself. But now I’m in doubts will my son study in top US LAC or in excellent Swiss university.
Your post is right in part that any US or Swiss grade in Belarus is just expensive toilet paper. I take as it comes. Grass is green, sun is bright, nobody no where waiting for my son. That is life as it is.

@happymomof1: “Right now, the OP hopes that his son won’t have to return to Belarus. However, he needs to think through a back-up plan in case that ends up being what happens.”

The OP says his son would already qualify for a visa in Canada.

Not exactly already qualify. But as per their immigration points system maximum points coming to young people with grade from recognized university and good English. They definitely will recognize grade and from US, and from Swiss, for English my son will easy get max possible points, and he is young. Bingo.
If he will wish immigrate to Canada, he will easy do it.

I would suggest Grinnell or Zurich. If you can afford it, as a student at Grinnell I think it is a welcoming atmosphere and would be a good place to grow as a student. I cannot speak to Zurich beyond my knowledge that it is a good school.

Have anybody idea how Trump’s order to halt immigration can affect OPT program and H1B visas?

Thank you for your feedback. Do you American or international? Have you idea about CS internship and career abilities for Grinnellians?

Trump’s order freezed green card applicants’ application only.

My vote would be for Grinnell.
During the coronavirus outbreak I saw how former international advisees were treated.
Advisees at LACs were very well taken care of: offered apartments or plane tickets or kept on campus with full board.
At large universities, they were supposed to figure it out and basically return home, although some things were set in place to help.
That’s where endowment/budget and students knowing professors personnally comes into play. Traces of the former “in loco parentis” perhaps.
Anyway, that’s why I’d pick Grinnell rather than UA, unless it’s cause unduly stress financially.

Ask international student offices what’s happened to their international students in March.

No matter what, ask what the universities’ plans for the Fall are.

Internships: there are many internships set up even for freshmen through the alumni networkat all universities, contact the regular career center to see how supportive they are of internationals’ finding internships.

I 100% understand why staying in Belarus is not possible. :frowning:
Fingers crossed, he’s soon going to be able to escape. ??
However your son will have to prepare for culture shock. I recommend reading The naked roommate. It’s a frank discussion or every challenge that a freshman may encounter and how to solve problems (whether caused by self or others).

On another thread, a current Grinnell student wrote about life at Grinnell for a high school student who can’t visit. It’s just one perspective but it’s an insider’s.
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/22753090/#Comment_22753090

@MYOS1634
Big Thanks for your post!
But unfortunately now Trump’s policy disturbing me more than coronavirus. Yes, I know that currently his order is about green cards only. But Trump declared very clearly that his target is to close US job market for internationals. And if he will be reelected he will have a lot of time to implement his goals.

We can’t discuss politics on this board, but even imagining he’s re-elected (which is indeed not out of the realm of possibility), your son would graduate from a US college and could either attend a graduate school (he’d have to have sufficiently good grades to enter a funded PHD program) or find an OPT. If neither worked out, he could go to Canada and work there for 3 years before becoming a permanent resident. So, that really shouldn’t be your worry now.
Also, remember that when your son graduates in 2025, no matter who is elected in November 2020, the president will be YET another person since there’d be another election in November 20204. (For the first time in his life, your son will live through a democratic election with lots of candidates, speeches, town halls, house parties…)
If you’re really worried, you could choose to send him to Canada for his undergraduate degree but as you stated with STEM skills, excellent English, and a college degree, he’d have no problem being admitted for a long term visa then permanent residency.

@Alezzz for the sake of transparency, the link @MYOS1634 gave was actually to a post I made. I agree with them that Grinnell goes above and beyond for their international students. Many of my international friends were allowed to stay on campus through the outbreak and are fed and cared for. They moved them all so that they have their own bathrooms and there are only two people on each floor of each dorm. If international students wanted to go home and could not afford the flights, the college paid for them. Alumni played a big role in the care of the entire student body during this time as well.

As to CS internships/careers, I believe this has been covered by other posters, but most/all top institutions regularly send students to Google/Amazon and the rest of Silicon Valley as well for internships and jobs. Here is the link for our general graduate outcomes page https://www.grinnell.edu/after-grinnell/graduate-outcomes-all-majors Click “See more” to see everywhere the last graduating class (2019) was employed.

63% of students participate in internships in their time at Grinnell. I have had two already and am hoping for a third this summer (but up in the air).

If you want more info about the Grinnell CS major, I’ll direct you to a CS professor’s blog where he has written an exhaustive resource on the topic. http://www.cs.grinnell.edu/~rebelsky/musings/index-prospective-students.html If you enjoy his writing, explore the rest of the blog for stuff all about Grinnell’s culture and just his random thoughts. He is a well respected and loved prof at Grinnell.

Oh! I am an American from New York State. I am a third year student at Grinnell.

You have said that the 12 k tuition at Grinnell (+ room and board) is not a drama for you). I’d choose Grinnell, then.

Not for the LAC experience, which, frankly, at this point in history, for a kid from Belarus is a luxury he shouldn’t think about twice. Not because of the parties, the movies, the advising, whatever. He will make his way. He won’t expect anyone to wait for him. He’ll do.

He should choose it for the connections, the alumni, the internships, the support he can expect when things go tits up again, as they very well may, off and on, the options his profs and the career center can help him with as far as grad school and jobs and visas are concerned. I do not think (correct me if I’m wrong) will get as much support at the U of A. He’ll definitely not get it at the U of Zurich. (And guys, the U of Zurich is definitely not the ETH. Nope, it’s NOT well known for STEM! That’s why everyone is getting it mixed up!)

And Switzerland is not welcoming to immigrants in ways that midwestern LACs are. No one has an incentive to help you stay. Switzerland has a 25 percent immigrant workforce and they want fewer. They are just more polite about it.

And Zurich is about the most expensive city to live in in the world. Please check the housing market before making any decision! The only reason it may end up being cheaper may be that it’s 3 years instead of 4.

It’s all a roll of the dice. Agree that Belarus right now is not a good backup, and I hesitate to recommend German universities to anyone from the US, but if for some reason the US options don’t work out, Germany is still there and if he can wrangle a residence permit he’ll even get a bursary - and depending on where he ends up studying I may be the person hitting you up for repayment! :wink: