BTW, is there a reason why you’ve ruled out Canada and Germany? In terms of entrepreneurial dynamism, outside of the US, I would look to Canada and Berlin.
Germans trying to get job in Switzerland, Canadians trying to get job in USA. Not vice versa, except may be some very rear cases. That is reason
Thank you for your opinion. Generally that what I’m looking here. View at my dilemma by eyes of American
@PurpleTitan
BTW if somebody will ask you about that choice, between Grinnell for 12K/year tuition and Purdue for $2K/year tuition (without addon from Caltech, just Purdue). What advice you will give to him?
I am normally a fan of LAC’s. However, one area I worry about them is CS. There isn’t the abundance of PhD’s like other subjects. Can anyone comment on Grinnell specifically for CS?
For what it is worth, your son most likely would be very happy at Grinnell College unless he needs to be near a city, and very happy at the University of Arizona unless he has a strong dislike for warm weather, arid climates. Tucson is a comfortable small city.
Both Grinnell College & the University of Arizona offer very different environments than that found in Zurich, Switzerland. The US is much more spread out & less populated in Iowa & in Arizona (unlike New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix or other major US cities). Overall the population density is much higher in Europe than in the US.
If your son can earn a STEM degree in just three years at Zurich while also taking courses at ETH, then he should have affordable options to earn a masters degree in the US if he so desires.
A young, foreign, college graduate with a STEM degree, should be able to find educational & work opportunities in North America in either the USA or in Canada barring an economic recession.
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@Alezzz, for an American citizen? I think it would depend on fit and finances. I personally am a fan of the low faculty/student ratio and focus on undergraduate education at LACs so if the LAC doesn’t exhaust all of the funds I have budgeted for education, I would choose Grinnell. That’s why I personally would rule UA out of the running.
But you’re not an American citizen/PR and the US already makes it pretty difficult for non-citizens to become a permanent resident and may make it more so in the future. Also, LACs just aren’t terribly well-known outside the US. So outside the US, Zurich or even UA may have a better reputation.
And yes, Canadians try to work in the US, but they also have Canada as a backup plan. Germans also have Germany (really all of the EU) as a backup plan. Then again, your son would also have Canada as a backup plan. I do see advantages to EU residency but I suppose your son could always pick up a Master’s in Germany (or elsewhere in the EU) for that. So in your circumstance, unless a PhD is the goal, I would pick Zurich.
@Eeyore123, PhD students or instructors with terminal degrees? The former makes no difference except at the far margin for the few CS students who will want to do graduate research. Even then, it’s not a deal breaker. The latter does make a difference, but isn’t necessarily related to the former. It depends entirely on the school.
@Alezzz, I respect @PurpleTitan’s opinions and that was a well reasoned reply. You need to know though, it is one person’s opinion.
As was mentioned, fit is different for everyone. When it comes to technical degrees, especially engineering, but not as much CS, I lean the opposite direction. We visited quite a few schools from the very small to the very big. There is a noticeable facility gap in most of the LACs. Again, this is more germane to degrees where different labs are important, but even for CS, I’d personally lean Purdue.
There is a third way in the US, finding schools with good facilities, small classes, and minimal use of TAs where most instructors have terminal degrees. When my son was looking (he’s since graduated with BS/MS in Mechanical Engineering), those were the programs he concentrated most on. Examples are Harvey Mudd, Rose-Hulman, and Cal Poly. The first two are small. Even though CP is big, they make a very concerted effort to keep classes small and to have instructors with terminal degrees even in discussions and labs.
@Alezzz: How long does it typically take for students to earn an undergraduate degree in CS at the University of Zurich ?
It’s not important for me, does Grinnell well-known outside the US or not. My son wouldn’t have ability for effective usage of US education outside of US. Any brilliant education have close to zero value if you can’t use it effectively. That I know well from my own life experience. So for my son study in US initially useless if then for him will possible to use those knowledge only outside of US.
For me important only how Grinnell is known in the US. I don’t looking here for any warranties. I just trying to understand your own attitude to your own colleges.
Please help me to get one thing. Will study in Grinnell give him advantage before other candidates at US job market or not? Let’s imagine that he came to typical company in Silicon Valley and showing them his Ginnell’s grade with perfect GPA. Will they say “Way!!” or he still will be one of crowd?
3 years
@Alezz: A degree from Grinnell College in Iowa is unlikely to give one an advantage in the job market.
While a CS degree is valuable in the US, the most prestigious schools for CS in the US are:
Stanford University
Carnegie Mellon University
Univ. of California at Berkeley
MIT
Univ. of Illinois
University of Washington at Seattle
Univ. of Texas at Austin
Georgia Tech
CalTech
Cornell University
Harvey Mudd College
So, no, a CS degree from Grinnell College in Iowa will not give your son any advantage with employers. I do not think that a CS degree from Grinnell College would be among the top 50 schools (universities & colleges) for computer science.
P.S. Although I am speculating on this point, I think a CS degree from the University of Arizona would be more noteworthy than a similar degree from Grinnell College.
@Alezzz: Because your son can earn a degree in CS in 3 years at the University of Zurich, Zurich will be much less costly than a 4 year degree from either of the US schools mentioned in the thread title.
@Publisher, you seem obsessed with rankings. Yes, those are the highest ranked and all fine CS schools, but the individual matters most for a field like CS. I see students from a school like Dartmouth (that wouldn’t be anywhere in any CS ranking) going to top software companies.
@ucbalumnus has a more realistic view of the software employment market.
In any case, I would
- Stress the education and environment (because, ultimately, how a kid develops is most important, especially for a field like CS). Grinnell would be very different from Zurich or UA.
- Not ignore work status. Your kid isn’t American so what may apply to Americans won’t apply to your kid.
@PurpleTitan: Not obsessed with rankings, just dealing with reality in responding to OP"s question.
@Alezz: Grinnell College is a very small school in a rural location.
The University of Arizona offers both undergraduate & graduate degrees in CS.
Not sure why some posters are pushing Grinnell College in this thread. Grinnell College is tiny & relatively unknown in the US. While a good school, Grinnell College is best known for awarding generous financial aid to international applicants.
Again:
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University of Zurich–especially since it only requires 3 years & there will be no visa issues.
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University of Arizona–large CS department, low cost, offers graduate degrees in CS = more & better professors and a wider number of CS course options.
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Grinnell College–but too expensive compared to your other options, and too small. The small size will be reflected in the number of courses offered in CS, the number of CS faculty, and in the number of employers recruiting on campus.
That’s true. But in that case 10000-20000$ is secondary thing for me. If I will be confident that from those money my son will get advantage in his future, I will pay it without doubts
@Publisher, and the reality is that CS grads from Grinnell enter top American software companies.
Just do a Google search of “Grinnell computer science LinkedIn”. You’ll find Grinnell alums at a bunch of the top American software firms (some would be Internationals, some not).
Look, I can tell you’re not from the software field. Definitely haven’t hired for the field. I don’t know why people who’s main experience about a field is what they find on the internet keep opining on a subject, honestly.
@PurpleTitan: If the individual matters more for CS employment, then why pay substantially more for a degree from a tiny school in the rural Midwest with more limited CS course offerings ?
CS degrees are hot now. A degree in CS from almost any school will yield employment opportunities. That is why it would be foolish to pay substantially more for a CS degree from a tiny, rural school with limited CS offerings.
At some point, commonsense should come into play–not an obsession with LACs.
P.S. If Grinnell College were substantially cheaper than Arizona or Zurich–as in a total full ride of tuition, fees, books, room & board, then I could understand your obsession with Grinnell College, but this isn’t the case. In fact, Grinnell is by far the most expensive option.
@Publisher, because I believe that the education and environment matters when it comes to development of an individual. Why would anyone choose a LAC? For that matter, why would anyone even choose a rigorous college over a diploma mill?
@PurpleTitan: I do not want to argue or debate. I have made my points. Let OP & OP’s son evaluate the situation.