<p>Pizzagirl, I sense the same thing. But not all things are for all people. I think school spirit was/is pretty high at Princeton, which is occasionally strong in basketball and never anything in football. It is often great at some non-money sports. I do not know it, but I sense the same is true at Dartmouth. From my visit to Brown this year, I sensed that kids at Brown love Brown but that big segments of the student body probably wouldn’t be lining up days in advance for football tickets even if the team were stupendous because that’s not the student body they’ve selected.</p>
<p>There is a second difference that Hawkette also has in mind. School spirit at the Ivies is largely limited to students and alumni. Not much from the community surrounding the school. Whereas, I did a consulting assignment a few years ago in Omaha. I made quite a few trips there and had lunches and dinners with folks at my client. These people were completely captivated by the Nebraska Cornhuskers. So much so that they pretty much didn’t talk about anything else (all except the EVP of an $8 billion division who’d been recruited from NJ). I had to bone up on Nebraska football stuff before I went out so that I could have something to talk with them about. My sister got her PhD at the University of Florida and told me that people (not just university folks) would greet each other on the street by saying, “Go Gaters.” (danas, is this still true?). The surrounding communities of most Ivies are just not going to be saying, “Go Crimson” with the same kind of fervor or living, eating, and sleeping the Quakers the way they seemed to in Omaha. So, she’s right that community support is a big difference. I for one wouldn’t choose that world. [I don’t think Stanford had it when I was there, but Duke may and Notre Dame surely does]. Some people love it and they should go to schools that have it. But some people wouldn’t and schools that in a sense select against it wouldn’t necessarily be improved if they decided to pay athletic scholarships to recruit talent for basketball and football or otherwise dramatically upgrade their teams</p>
<p>It’s simply impossible to get across to Hawkette that the Ivies have tons of school spirit already, as well as more applicants than they can handle, and that big time sports would add little or nothing to life there, and in fact quite likely detract from the atmosphere that people at those schools prefer. </p>
<p>She’s a zealot. She just cannot imagine a mindset other than her own. </p>
<p>Many of us have tried to point out to her that tailgating with 40,000 people is not everyone’s idea of “fun.”</p>
<p>Doesn’t look like Notre Dame is going to be a big time football power anytime soon.</p>
<p>And I dont think the average SAT score of the Ivy league football players is 1048 (out of 1600). I don’t think the Ivy league wants to go that low.</p>
<p>“Notre Dame, like every other football power, lowers its admissions standards for athletes. But even though the SAT average for Notre Dame football players — about 1048 — falls about 300 points below the average for the student body, it soars above the NCAA minimum. Stellar running backs with a combined SAT score of 600 and a B average in high school would be fair game for many other colleges. Academically competitive universities like Notre Dame, Stanford and Duke would be unlikely to consider them.”</p>
<p>TO: Students Interested in Ivy League Intercollegiate Athletics
FROM: Ivy League Deans and Directors of Admission and Directors of Athletics </p>
<p>We welcome your interest in seeking an education at an Ivy League institution and participating in our athletic programs. The Ivy League is committed to seeking individuals who are remarkable both as students and as athletes. This statement is intended to explain the most important aspects of the Ivy admission process to students who seek intercollegiate athletic competition. </p>
<p>The principles that govern admission of Ivy students who are athletes are the same as for all other Ivy applicants. Each Ivy institution: </p>
<p>-admits all candidates including athletes on the basis of their achievements and potential as students and on their other personal accomplishments;
-provides financial aid to all students only on the basis of need, as determined by each institution; and,
-provides that no student be required to engage in athletic competition as a condition of receiving financial aid.</p>
<p>After thinking about it I realized that the difference between the Ivies and Standford, Duke etc is a natural response to the geographic and conference situations they find themselves in. The ivies are able to follow the “high road” because they have the luxury of being in proximity of similer schools that could cooperate and form a league where athletics could be pursued on a large but controled scale. This is a luxury that Stanford does not have because of it’s location. Far away from any similer school it has the choice of belonging to the pac 10 and doing what it takes to remain competative with ucla, oregon etc. or it can choose the relative athletic obscurity of Div3 like WashU or Chicago. Standford, Duke or Vanderbuilt do not have the option of pursuing Ivy Style athletics. The Ivies could change to a “media driven” sports program but probably find that overall the “Ivy Model” has more benefits. So rather than Hawkettes thesis that Harvard might change to be like Duke, it is more likely that Duke would like to change to be like Harvard but Can’t.</p>
<p>-admits all candidates including athletes on the basis of their achievements and potential as students and on their OTHER personal accomplishments; </p>
<p>Can’t you read between the lines here? They will significantly lower the admissions standards for athletes, and they try to cover their tracks with fancy wording that wouldn’t fool many 7th graders I know.</p>
<h2>Doesn’t look like Notre Dame is going to be a big time football power anytime soon.</h2>
<p>You must not follow football.</p>
<p>Notre Dame went 7-6 last year. Bad for Notre Dame standards, but things are looking bright.
ND has the talent to be a 10+ win team, if the coaches can light a fire under their @$$. I hope Charlie can pull it together. </p>
<p>They are on the verge of becoming a power again. Will they? I don’t know, but I hope so.</p>
<p>Scroll down the bottom left hand side of the screen, and check out which schools are believed to have recruited the best football players for 2009. Notre Dame is pretty high up the list (so is Stanford). Not bad. </p>
<p>In 2003, or 2004 there were only 5 recruited football players in the country with SAT scores over 1300 out of a possible 1600. I don’t think things have changed too much. Obviously, Notre Dame and Stanford are going after many athletes that the Ivy League schools won’t accept.</p>
<p>I still don’t understand why I need to attend the school in order to enjoy the (professional) sports it provides.</p>
<p>I went to the Alabama-Mississippi State game this year. I had a blast! My only connection to either school is that my friend teaches law at UofA. Tens of thousands of the attendees – to say nothing of the TV audience – were neither students nor alumni of Alabama. If we were being cheated out of the full experience, you sure couldn’t tell from our enthusiasm or our willingness to pay big bucks for our tickets.</p>
<p>“The ivies are able to follow the “high road” because they have the luxury of being in proximity of similer schools that could cooperate and form a league where athletics could be pursued on a large but controled scale. This is a luxury that Stanford does not have because of it’s location.”</p>
<p>And hey, look, the only reason NU is in the Big 10 is because of location, not because the school considers it part of its mission to have fabulous football/basketball teams.</p>
<p>Yes, and do you know how much money Notre Dame football brings in. How dare you to judge my school… you don’t know anything about our students, school or tradition. You take away our football and the whole student body and alumni base would riot… I’m not kidding. </p>
<p>You might think football games are just us couch potatoes getting drunk and cheering- except you wouldn’t know that 80% of us were varsity athletes in high school and still compete in dormitory intramurals. A healthy body, spirit and mind are all important facets of a healthy life, and we support each other and love to compete in whatever sports or endeavors we pursue.</p>
<p>It’s not just a football game, it’s a tradition that brings tens of thousands of the Notre Dame alumni and students together every Saturday. Whether you’re one of the 30,000 alumni that fly in or drive to South Bend, the 8,000 students on campus, or one of the 100,000+ ND alumni that congregate to tailgates, bbqs, and bars across the country, we’re all together watching the same game and cheering for a school we love. Football brings us together… it’s not just a stupid game… seriously.</p>
<p>You’re taking what I’m saying to an extreme far beyond what was meant. As I’ve said, there are different models that make sense and work well for some places and not for others. I’m saying I’m happy it’s not my school’s priority, not knocking the benefit to your school’s community.</p>
<p>One size does not fit all, period. I chose my school in part because I didn’t want or need that environment; you chose your school in part because it did.</p>
<p>There’s nothing wrong with either.</p>
<p>Where did I ever write it was just a stupid game? Now who is judging who?</p>
<p>The funny thing is that Harvard’s bread and butter (hockey) is on a big down year. The basketball team is having an okay year, and outside of beating BC, they’ve lost to all of the decent teams they have played. Also, outside of one guy who verballed for next year, their recruiting class for this year was ‘okay’.</p>
<p>A 5 million dollar deficit is causing Stanford to trim it’s athletic budget. The big question is if it will trim by cutting back “pac 10” style by eliminating smaller sports or cut back on Coaching Salaries, Plane Trips etc. for “Big Time Sports”. </p>
<p>The economy may move many colleges back toward a more low key, student centered athletic program as ticket and adverstising revenues dry up for the big “media driven” sports. Maybe the ivy model is the future not the past.</p>
<p>If all the money needed for the athletic budget is raised in a way that doesn’t take money away from the academics, then I don’t care. But if the university budget is being raided to fund stadium maintenance and coaches salary then I think that university has its priorities ass-backwards.</p>