Harvard is not a good school??

College Search & Selection
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<p>I thought that the title would catch some people's eye!</p>

<p>My son is working on his college list -- Harvard has the excellent name, of course, and is known for good FA (important to us -- we are low-income).</p>

<p>However, I have read numerous posts about Harvard not being focused on undergrad and having TA's teach the classes. My son has a friend that was estatic to attend Harvard and just completed freshman year and hated it.</p>

<p>What I am wondering -- are the "stories" I hear about Harvard true? Are most of the classes taught by TA's? In what ways does the lack of focus on undergrads effect those kids?</p>

<p>he never had Harvard under consideration because of the stories -- but the excellent FA is a draw and it offers the majors he wants. So -- I thought I would post and figure out if the stories are true and should be taken under consideration -- or just sour grapes from those who didn't get in.</p>

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<p>It would be wise for you and your S to visit H during the school year and come to your own conclusions.</p>

<p>If that's not possible, your S can connect with a variety of current H students and ask their impressions.</p>

<p>My thoughts are that if your S is looking for a college where classes are small, students are extremely close to their professors -- who hold their jobs because of a love of teaching undergraduates, not a love of doing research and consulting -- a liberal arts college, not a place like Harvard or a large public institution -- would be a good fit. I say this as a Harvard alum, and I also tell this to students when I interview them for Harvard.</p>

<p>The fact that your S's friend hated H doesn't mean H is a bad place. At any college, it can take people a while to adjust. H is filled with very intense, individualistic students, and is in Boston -- a place that is not known for its emotional warmth. That would be a lot of culture shock for a person from Colorado or many other parts of the country. That, however, doesn't mean that your S's friend made a mistake going there. He may just need to adjust to learning about a new environment. Of course, if it's a really bad fit for him, he may be happier at a different college.</p>

<p>When it comes to classes, plusses of Harvard include the fact that students have more than 1,000 classes to chose from. Classes are never cancelled for lack of enrollment unless literally no one enrolls for the class. If a student wants to take a class that isn't offered, a student can do it as an independent study as long as they find a faculty member who's willing to teach it. That isn't hard to do since Harvard has so many faculty members.</p>

<p>In addition, students get about 2 weeks to shop around for classes. They can sit in the classes to determine if that's the course or section they want to take. This is a very liberal way of allowing students to pick and choose their courses, and I haven't heard of other colleges that allow this.</p>

<p>I do think that Harvard is particularly an attractive college for people who are inspired by interacting with their peers versus people who are most inspired by close relationships with nurturing faculty. To me and many other alum, the best part of Harvard was being able to be surrounded by a diverse group of fascinating peers who were extremely talented and involved in academics and ECs that they were passionate about. That was the highlight of my time at Harvard, and it is something that I have never experienced since, including when I was living in large, sophisticated cities in this country.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom -- thanks, a good perspective. The schools he seems drawn to are not LACs for the most part. He likes having great professors but he wants smaller classes, not huge ones. He prefers a mixture of lecture and discussion and doesn't like the idea of TA's teaching.</p>

<p>Peer interaction is important and the resources are very important.</p>

<p>I don't think the emotional warmth thing would be an issue -- my son is quiet and more standoffish until he is comfortable, so touchy-feeling places leave him uncomfortable.</p>

<p>We will try to schedule a visit when classes are in session. </p>

<p>he did take a regular Harvard class last year (it was through the extension program, online -- but he was the only extension student who took it -- the other students were all regular Harvard undergrads and graduate students). he loved the class -- the topic, professor, TA's, resources, etc. since he took it online, he didn't get the interaction and he said he could tell it was probably fantastic.</p>

<p>thanks for the info.</p>

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<p>This was recently extensively discussed on another thread "Harvard vs. LACs" <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=343141&highlight=harvard+lac%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=343141&highlight=harvard+lac&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you haven't already, you (or your son) should look over those posts.</p>

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<p>SarahsDad -- thanks for much, I will read it over!</p>

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<p>Your son should look at the University of Chicago-which has a student/ professor ratio of 4/1 and is known for all of the following:
"a college where classes are small, students are extremely close to their professors -- who hold their jobs because of a love of teaching undergraduates, not a love of doing research and consulting" .
Chicago was recently rated #1 among college students in the Princeton Review for " best undergraduate education".
You might also have your son look at this link from Chicago- it explains their undergraduate educational philosophy
<a href="http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level1.asp?id=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level1.asp?id=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Ehh, Harvard is not as undergraduate focused as some other Ivy League schools like Dartmouth, Princeton, or Yale. It is still a fantastic school though. But again, just because one person does not like it, does not mean you won't.</p>

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<p>Basically, if you are there to learn in the traditional sense, in the classroom through constant interaction with the professor, a liberal-arts college is better.</p>

<p>However, if you can learn a lot simply through being in a crowd of very intelligent people, then Harvard is a great choice.</p>

<p>As for numbers,</p>

<p>According to <a href="http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/99_07/GESO.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/99_07/GESO.html&lt;/a>, The Graduate School Organization claims that 40% of undergraduate teaching at Yale is done by Graduate Students, 30% by Adjunct and part-time faculty, and 30% by tenure and tenure-track faculty. This is calculated through "contact hours." If a professor lectures for 3 hours a week and the 12 graduate student-led sections meet in labs for 3 hours a week, the Graduate School Organization counts this as 3 professor hours and 36 graduate student hours. Yale, using its own methodology, would count it as a professor teaching a course, and list 7% of classes taught by Graduate Students, 26% by Adjunct, and 67% by tenure or tenure-track faculty.</p>

<p>Neither is a perfect measure. Considering that Yale prides on its undergraduate teaching, we can expect Harvard to have an even smaller number of classes taught by professors.</p>

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<p>You may wish to check out the thread "Who Loves Harvard?" in the Harvard forum on CC. In that thread, there are some other threads linked, and I think you will find some perspectives from students who actually attend (or have attended) the school. <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=352350%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=352350&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For the record, my daughter attends Harvard and loves it. She has had no classes taught by TA's and had opportunities to get to know all of her professors. </p>

<p>As you might imagine, there are students who are unhappy at every school. How people react to tales of unhappiness depends a lot on what people want to hear.</p>

<p>Northstarmom's advice to visit during the school year is the best advice. Be sure to talk to lots of students and have your son try to spend time with students who do activities and take classes that your son thinks he would enjoy.</p>

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<p>hsmomstef: just for the record, I would not characterize LACs necessarily as "touchy-feely" places. In fact, they can be very demanding. SarahsDad just suggested one series of posts; as it turns out today I posted to another string you can find titled "are LACs any good?" which in general describes what I experienced at a high-end LAC.</p>

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<p>My brother went there. He wishes he had gone somewhere else. The one thing he did like though, is that there are a lot of interesting and diverse people there, if you find them. </p>

<p>Basically, most of the people that go there are sort of savants. They are geniuses at math, or physics, or writing, or whatever. If you are just pretty smart in all areas, not one in particular, you can get kind of squandered. You end up not being able to cut it, and your passion for a subject may be destroyed. If you go to a more nurturing place, like a small LAC, you will be able to go into something that you really enjoy, not just something were you can cut it. There is just too much competition.</p>

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<p>I agree that LACs aren't necessarily touchy-feely, but by their nature, they probably offer a more nuturing and intimate environment than does a place like Harvard. They also may be as intense and even more academically rigorous.</p>

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<p>ps- sorry, the post I referred to was under "how good are LACs"</p>

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<p>"If you are just pretty smart in all areas, not one in particular, you can get kind of squandered. You end up not being able to cut it, and your passion for a subject may be destroyed."</p>

<p>"Not being able to cut it?" About 96% of the students at Harvard graduate from Harvard, one of the country's highest rates of graduation. Students may decide to switch majors because they realize that they lack the ability to become superstars in that major, but students won't flunk out of Harvard for lack of ability to survive the academic challenges there.</p>

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<p>No, what I mean is, you could go in, being pretty interested in math. Then, when you get there, you are unable to compete, and end up with a D in your first math class. Then, you end up doing something else, which you may come to have a passion for, but only because that was the only subject you felt you could succeed in. </p>

<p>It is possible, that at a smaller college, you would be able to grow you abilities in math, and become good at it, rather than getting pushed out.</p>

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<p>Yes, fhqwgads2005, what you say is true.
It's also true that if the person had gone to the smaller college, they may have done fine in math, but never would have had the math abilities to, for instance, hold a math professorship at a major university. Still, they may be perfectly fine being a math prof at a third tier or a math teacher at a secondary school.</p>

<p>If they had gone to Harvard, they may have switched into a field where they had the talent to be a world expert or to have obtained a job with more status than what they would have gotten as an OK graduate in math from even an excellent LAC.</p>

<p>For instance, I had a friend who couldn't handle premed at Harvard, but got her masters in hospital administration from there, and became a top administrator at a major big city hospital. Would she have been happier as a doctor? Who knows?</p>

<p>So, ya never know. There are advantages to both types of undergrad environments.</p>

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<p>No, you are incorrect. Just because you don't graduate from Harvard doesn't mean you can only get a professorship at a third tier school. </p>

<p>People don't have to be naturally good at things. College is a place for learning. You can LEARN to be a good mathematician. You can be nurtured and grow your mind in new ways. </p>

<p>I just think, that at a place like Harvard, you are unable to do that. </p>

<p>Now sure, you will probably end up fine either way. But it is a point to consider.</p>

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<p>I understand the point about feeling overwhelmed by say, the math department, at a school like Harvard and wondering whether one might have continued with the subject had one gone to an LAC. It's hard not to wonder when something like that happens, but I do know people who reached that same realization about their limits at Williams and Davidson and other LACs, and not just in math. Those LACs are perhaps more nurturing in feel, but the academic rigor at the top LACs is still pretty intense. (One of my classmates from Williams is a math professor at Harvard.) It may be one of those questions that will remain unanswered for most people.</p>

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<p>No. Harvard is a good school.</p>

<p>It has the best brand name in higher education.
It is considered (usually) the top research university in the world.
It is in a good college city and good neighborhood.</p>

<p>Some people may consider the above to be a negative.</p>

<p>They did fire their president recently, and seem to be working out issues regarding core curriculum.</p>

<p>However, I think your son could get a good education there</p>

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<p>this was a good thread for my son and I!</p>

<p>menlo -- University of Chicago is on list!</p>

<p>He never really had Harvard on his "list" (right now he is thinking Georgetown, Chicago, Tufts, Columbia and Dartmouth) but he was considering it because of the FA and how much he enjoyed the class he took -- and the number of classes offered in his areas of interest.</p>

<p>While I think he really likes the idea of an LAC, he is afraid he might outgrow it. I know it would depend on the LAC, but his experience has been with Colorado College. He has taken numerous classes there, worked in one of the departments and participated in many ECs there (we live across the street from CC) and he has loved it -- but thinks that in four years of college he would feel very limited by the opportunities. </p>

<p>As far as nurturing relationships and touchy-feely -- I think every school has its personality. What my son would like is the opportunity to interact and be mentored by top professors in the field -- not in every class, but in areas that he decides to major in.</p>