Harvard Legacy Admit Rate -- 30%

Parents Forum
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When an athletic team at D1 plays at a slightly lower level it’s still in the top 1-2% of performance compared to all possible college teams (1% of HS athletes play D1) but they lose their games to other schools that are not slightly down … when the orchestra has a slightly worse year it plays at a similarily high level however it does not lose games; the slightly lower level does not appreciably affect the performance like it does for sports. Personally I think this difference around team vs team competition drives the difference … tipping applicants within the qualified pool yields an orchastra/theatre group/dance troop that is very high quality without any hit to the academic standards works just fine … there is a bigger downside if the same process is used for sports so for sports using slots and likely letters raises the quality of the athletic recruits froim the general qualified studnet pool at a very slight hit to academic standards (at the overall cumlative level).</p>

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<p>So they lose games. So what? What, sports has to be taken so seriously that this matters? Why can’t it be treated akin to intramurals – fun and exercise?</p>

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<p>texaspg, did Stanford admit the tap dancer with a Likely Letter guaranteeing her a slot as selected by the Dance instructor?
That is how athletes are recruited at Ivies. Stanford is in a different athletic league, so they do promise admission to athletes AND give athletic scholarships. Did they proceed that way?</p>

<p>At Ivies and all other schools, a certain number of players are recruited by the coaches to fill their allotted number of guaranteed slots. This is the practice I am curious about, not the practice of giving a candidate kudos for athletic excellence as part of their overall profile, and just letting them walk on/try out if they get in. That is basically the same as for any other EC, and certainly does occur with any number of applicants at the Ivies.</p>

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<p>It is my understanding that many of these non-revenue sports are partially funded by private donations from athlete-alumni of the college who care about the tradition and success of the sport. There are annual alumni events held in conjunction with the current teams, and some of the athlete-alums endow the sport with annual awards.</p>

<p>Also, coaches need to protect their jobs. A serial loser is not going to be employed indefinitely.</p>

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<p>Based on the post I attached from dungareedoll, Stanford seems to have admitted the world’s best tap dancer and world’s best skeet shooter for being the world champion and not as dance or athletic (shooting?) department recruits? So I am suggesting if you are the best fencer, you deserve a shot as an EC in the holistic approach even if it is not a sport. </p>

<p>I think there is a thread somewhere about Ivies academic requirements before one can be recruited as an athlete and these standards are usually rigorous. The Ivy coaches do have certain number of slots to allot to the recruits but the students do have to meet the academic standards. However, Stanford or Northwestern or some of the other schools known for sports do and will take some star athletes with only the minimum required by NCAA for athletic scholarships (2.0 and 1000/1600?) if they seriously need someone in a specific role of play like a point guard or a running back. </p>

<p>I see a lot of bashing of role of sports in colleges in this thread but some of these sports are major moneymakers for the college and we are talking about ridiculous sums of money that goes to support other sports in the school. While we are arguing about why the schools need to give away the seats, there are people out there stating that colleges are ripping off talented players who ought to be paid more generously by the schools as opposed to these measly room and board scholarships that don’t ensure graduation while the schools make millions off of their talent. Then NCAA turns around, suspends players who are mostly URMs who may be really poor in a lot of cases for such money making schemes like selling their trophies or athletic suits they wore playing in rose bowl or whatever because that is the only way they can get some pocket money. It is really a disgrace that players at Ohio State got suspended for making 1000 or 1500$ after winning some bowl but NCAA ensured that they did nt miss the bowl game this year because the payout to the two schools combined was $35 million and the kids that needed to be suspended were the stars at Ohio State. However, they are dispensible for regular season games in 2011-12 since they will have fresh recruits next year.</p>

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<p>“see a lot of bashing of role of sports in colleges in this thread but some of these sports are major moneymakers for the college and we are talking about ridiculous sums of money that goes to support other sports in the school.”</p>

<p>Yes, those of us bashing it are more than aware that sports are big moneymakers. That’s not new news!</p>

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<p>This is very true in my D’s sport. They went from NCAA affiliation to being a club team to be able to accept the outside private donations that are necessary for the expenses. For instance, they just had dinner last night with an athlete-alum at an out of town regatta that one of the sculls is named after. I looked at my donation request letter and saw that a minimum of $10,000 is necessary for a boat being named after you. </p>

<p>I’ll never see my name on the side of one.</p>

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<p>I think it is great that the Ivies don’t give athletic scholarships. How do they lure players? With the chance to get a great education, mainly. That probably results in a fair amount of self-selection.</p>

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<p>This thread was started to discuss how the Legacy admissions process works at Ivies, why it is in effect, what effect it has, does it really make that much of a difference to the class, to the legacy applicants, to the chances of other applicants… </p>

<p>It has now switched focus to Athletic recruiting at Ivies, because they are also specially hooked applicants in the ED/EA process, even more so than any of the other hooked groups.
!!!Not about bashing sports, per se. Or saying the athletes are way below the academic par.!!!
Just questioning why these methods are in place, because certain athletes pre-selected by coaches are handled so differently from other applicants who also have important EC’s in their profiles.
It has been cited in a post that Ivy Conference rules stipulate that each team must have an average of stats not more than one standard deviation below that of the class as a whole. The athletes that get recruited by coaches for ED/EA admissions slots tend to be the very best and/or have the lowest stats, needing a push.
I am just curious why the coaches have this unique power in admissions, why this is so important to the school, what impact it makes on the school.</p>

<p>The ED slots are valuable. Is it a zero sum game, whereby fewer applicants who are also qualified but not hooked athletes can get accepted ED/EA? </p>

<p>To me, this methodology gives certain athletes chosen by coaches promised early admission signals something unique about athletics in the eyes of the Ivies.</p>

<p>Compiling points suggested so far:

  1. Keeps coaches happy, feeling that they can put together a team with a chance of a good record.
  2. Sports events build community on campus and among alums, esp if the teams are doing well.
  3. Happy, involved alums are connected, even gathered to the college and are more likely to donate to the school=money-makers.
  4. Ivies are competing for top athletes with DI schools who can offer scholarships to recruited athletes while they cannot.
  5. Compared to artists, marginal difference in quality of athletes has more impact on marginal results.
  6. The number of athletic recruits is ???, not a very large number with respect to the total class size, so it does not matter much.</p>

<p>Conversely, how are the donations from alums, the morale of coaches, the community spirit, the team records at schools that are of very high academic caliber and do NOT offer the athletic recruit Likely option? [at MIT? UChicago? CalTech? ???]</p>

<p>And, is it valid to compare the Ivies to say Stanford (who gives scholarships to their athletic recruits) to see if the above impacts are enhanced or changed greatly at Stanford compared to the Ivies? For example, do Stanford’ alums donate more money? Are the students more connected by attending sports events/rooting for their teams?? etc.</p>

<p>Anyway, it was meant to be a riff on hooked types of applications.
I love threads where people are not ranting, but analyzing and sharing info to open people’s minds. Thanks!</p>

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<p>Because Division 1 athletes are the top athletes in the world. The Ivy League has decided that it wants the top athletes, and why shouldn’t it - it seeks the top achievers in every other admissions arena. In order to secure Div. 1 athletes, Ivy League coaches must be able to compete on the same admissions timeline, ie, national signing days, as the scholarship schools. That is why the athletes get in early. Hunt is right, Ivy League athletes have elite academic education as a parallel, if not superseding, goal. They don’t do it for the money.</p>

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<p>The focus on athletics is very much alumni-driven. Particularly rich alumni. Here’s an interesting article on the push by rich alumni at Harvard to put together a competitive basketball team. The team this year fell one game short of reaching the NCAA tournament (and almost all the starters will be back again next year):</p>

<p>[Harvard</a> Basketball Gathers Assists From Knight Capital to Tudor - Bloomberg](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>

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<p>I’m pretty sure the athletic alumni give more than say the choral, orchestra, debate alumni do. It simply is that athletics are something that alum will follow for years and donate when the requests letters are sent. When the alum of the robotics team donates big dollars, maybe things will change.</p>

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<p>There, I fixed it for you. :)</p>

<p>I am just curious why the test scores have this unique power in admissions, why this is so important to the school, what impact it makes on the school.</p>

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<p>Are you serious, blue bayou? Not quite understanding what you’re trying to say here.</p>

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<p>Read the brief article cosar linked and understand the pure hiring power, the power in having alumni like that connected to and invested in the outcome of the graduates, and understand that when the students fight for the spots at Harvard, they are fighting for these connections.</p>

<p>It is ridiculous for otherwise intelligent people to fail to notice the “connections” people talk about when it comes to the ivy league are these same people who are wildly invested in creating a viable basketball team. </p>

<p>Say you are Hahvahd. what are you going to say, “No. We are a bastion of high. er learn. ing. We don’t care if this matters to you.” hah.</p>

<p>Say they never gave another dime to the school capital campaign? Let’s just say the jobs are with the alumni. It’s all about the jobs.</p>

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<p>Simple: colleges recruit athletes, legacies, and students with high test scores bcos it benefits them. (H&P are going back to early admissions bcos it benefits them.) Everything that they do is to their own benefit.</p>

<p>It’s their money and they make the rules.</p>

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<p>“Also, coaches need to protect their jobs. A serial loser is not going to be employed indefinitely.”</p>

<p>That explains why the coaches would beg the administration for admissions slots. It does not explain why the administration goes along with it. Protecting the fencing coach’s job is not an institutional goal.</p>

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<p>Protecting the college’s NCAA Division 1 status is an institutional goal. The college cannot remain a member if they cannot field a team.</p>

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<p>The Ivy League IS, after all, a sports conference. It doesn’t have to do with much more than that. Certainly Dartmouth is much, much more similar to Williams than it is like Columbia, Cornell is more like the University of Michigan than it is like Princeton, Brown is more like Amherst than it is like Harvard, etc.</p>

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<p>For those concerned that the Harvard fencing team is an undeserving bunch of kids who can swing a sword, take a browse through the team roster by clicking on the names: [Men’s</a> Fencing Roster - 2010-11: Harvard Athletics - GoCrimson.com](<a href=“http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mfencing/2010-11/roster]Men’s”>http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mfencing/2010-11/roster)</p>