Harvard or Princeton?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
121

<p>WhetDreamWeaver,</p>

<p>
[quote]
Best Medical School: Harvard, JHU
Best Law School (aka Trinity): Harvard Yale Stanford
Best Business School: Harvard, UPenn, Stanford, UChicago, Kellogg, Sloan
Best Engineering Schools (Up to PhD): MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Caltech</p>

<p>As you can see, Harvard has its absolute domination over other fine institutions, except Hard Sciences and Engineering program.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I find it amusing frankly that you would put a list of schools up like that and then argue that Harvard has "absolute domination over other fine institutions". Take law school, for instance. Harvard, Yale, and Stanford have equally strong law programs; they simply have different focuses and specialties. Yale will get you clerkships, Harvard will get you corporate work, and Stanford will plug you into the "new economy" very nicely. For business, the same also holds true (schools have their specialties and niches, and Harvard has no overwhelming dominance or anything).</p>

<p>In any event, I think your correlation between graduate strength and undergraduate strength is highly suspect. You cite two instances where the schools offer undergraduates program based on their graduate specialties; obviously these are going to be extremely strong. In undergraduate business, Penn is without a doubt at the top of the field. Yet this fails to reflect on the rest of the university at all; the effect is confined to that one program. If that's what you're looking for, great; if not, it's a more-or-less useless metric. Needless to say, Princeton also has one of these programs (Woodrow Wilson school), but I would never argue that it strengthens the undergraduate quality of instruction in any areas besides political science and public policy.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Another example is that Yale has a relatively strong humanity/history/social science programs due to the presence of its wonderful law school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It does? Mind further explaining the overlap between these two?</p>

122

<p>Undergraduate Student Happiness: Harvard 28/31</p>

<p>Item, % Harvard, % Princeton</p>

<p>weekly spend money $148, 61 -------you need to print money at home
avg. starting salary $28.6 K, 27.8 k
avg. current salary, 54.8 k, 102 k-------nice ROI + better student experience</p>

<p>Homeless People
% of grads who own their own home, 25%, 63%</p>

<p>% of income that goes towards paying college debt 17%, 7%
% with degree related to their first job 83%, 63%
% still with their first job 58, 25 - less mobility, stuck with same-old-same-old</p>

<p>% currently unelmployed 8%, 0 ------soft majors?</p>

<p>% of grads who wish they had studied more 42, 38 - if profs don't teach
% who do graduate work 58, 75</p>

123

<p>Last time I checked, university professors teach under students too. What you fail to realize is that the entire graduate (or professional) program is adding resources/opportunities to their under programs. Let me take MIT engineering program, for example. The world-famous professors doing high level (i.e., graduate level, not elementary under level) research (analytical/computational/experimental) bring in outside fund/grants (What you must realize is that there is a limit in what under student can contribute for high level researches, including engineering, science, other business/social sciences etc, etc). In turn, these funds provide opportunity for undergrad participating low-level research and hands-on experiences. These customer funds also foot the bill for building new state-of-the-art experimental facilities, which also can be shared with under student for their low-level research/classes. I don’t wanna be repetitive. But the same is true for Stanford, Caltech. You can take a good look at the list and ask yourself, do you really think hardcore engineers should go to Princeton foregoing MIT/Stanford. As for Yale question of yours, yes, the wondrous Yale Law school makes its English/history/social science program so exceptional. Ditto for Harvard, Standford. Google yourself for data.</p>

124

<p>Yale law has nothing, whatsoever, to do with Yale's strong history/english/social science departments. The two are not connected (though they might cooperate). You are comparing apples and orange - completely different faculties and schools.</p>

125

<p>I hate to point out the obvious. But don't you think Yale sociology under student can benefit from attending a seminar hosted by YLS?</p>

126

<p>
[quote]
Last time I checked, university professors teach under students too. What you fail to realize is that the entire graduate (or professional) program is adding resources/opportunities to their under programs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm sorry, I should've been more precise. I was referring back to your argument that professional graduate programs (law, medical, business) are a boon to undergraduate education. I completely agree that academic graduate schools are very helpful to undergraduates, both in attracting funding and top-class professors. But then again, Princeton has these types of programs, so I don't particularly see how this is a strong point for either side. What I dispute, however, is that the presence of professional schools provides the same benefit. Sure, some professors at these institutions teach undergrads and grads alike. However I'm not convinced that this is so tremendously useful -- I view it as more of an incremental benefit than something that really changes the undergraduate experience.</p>

<p><a href="What%20you%20must%20realize%20is%20that%20there%20is%20a%20limit%20in%20what%20under%20student%20can%20contribute%20for%20high%20level%20researches,%20including%20engineering,%20science,%20other%20business/social%20sciences%20etc,%20etc">quote</a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I can't speak for the hard sciences, but there's plenty of "high level" research and analysis in the social sciences and humanities (even some quantitative research) that undergraduates can contribute to. A recent Princeton graduate even had her work published in the prestigious APSA journal Perspectives.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You can take a good look at the list and ask yourself, do you really think hardcore engineers should go to Princeton foregoing MIT/Stanford.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I never said they should. In fact, as I recall, I didn't dicuss MIT or Stanford in that context at all.</p>

<p>
[quote]
As for Yale question of yours, yes, the wondrous Yale Law school makes its English/history/social science program so exceptional. Ditto for Harvard, Standford.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>All I can see is that some law professors teacher some undergraduate and graduate courses. Sure that's an advantage (marginal, I would say), but how exactly does that make Yale's program what it is? I would say that it's Yale's academic faculty and character that are primarily responsible for its strengths in that area. Unless, of course, I'm missing some hidden advantage.</p>

<p>Edit:
[quote]
I hate to point out the obvious. But don't you think Yale sociology under student can benefit from attending a seminar hosted by YLS?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Obviously they can. But universities without law schools also put on great seminars and sponsor great speakers. Why are the law school's so special and unique?</p>

127

<p>What you fail to realize is that there is a glaring difference between under and graduate-level researches, in terms of intensity/depth/ qualitiy. No matter how bright you are, you can't go far without in-depth graduate-level research experience in both academic and non-academic carrer.</p>

128

<p>i second rak's distinction between graduate programs, which princeton has (and in roughly comparable numbers to harvard and yale), and professional programs, which it does not. professional programs, unlike graduate ones, have separate administrations, faculties, and endowments. they are of far less use to undergrads than are graduate programs. for example, whereas a princeton math or philosophy major can take graduate-level courses in his major, a harvard student interested in med school is not going to take courses up-campus at HMS. ditto for yale students and YLS, etc.</p>

129

<p>
[quote]
What you fail to realize is that there is a glaring difference between under and graduate-level researches, in terms of intensity/depth/ qualitiy. No matter how bright you are, you can't go far without in-depth graduate-level research experience in both academic and non-academic carrer.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I absolutely agree. A doctoral degree is essential for a career in academia. I also agree that if a student were limited to just undergraduate level opportunities, it would be much more difficult to conduct that kind of research (although again not impossible). But here we come to a big advantage of Princeton. Undergraduates can and do take graduate level courses and are able to do graduate level research if they so choose. The point is that they're not limited to undergraduate level work.</p>

130

<p>wet, i think you are grossly underestimating the number and quality of princeton's graduate programs. according to the last national research council (NRC) report, issued in the 1990s, princeton then offered 34 of the 41 rated graduate programs - more than harvard or yale. as for their quality, well, princeton came in fourth, behind only MIT, berkeley, and harvard. specifically, it came in second in the arts and humanities, fifth in engineering, fourth in the physical sciences and mathematics, and eighth in the social and behavioral sciences. not bad for a place that, as even you acknowledge, is famous for its undergraduate focus.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.stat.tamu.edu/%7Ejnewton/nrc_rankings/nrc1.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/nrc1.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

131

<p>f.scottie: The NRC report actually understates the current quality of Princeton's political science program quite substantially, mind you. In the past five years, Princeton has built up one of the very top political science departments in the country, and it's continuing to grow. This will no doubt help to raise the overall ranking of its "social and behavioral sciences" programs.</p>

132

<p>I don’t underestimate the quality of Princeton Graduate School. They have very good graduate programs. I’ve never said otherwise. But, its graduate program is not well recognized as the under program. That is what I have been saying all the time. “HYPSM” is the five best undergraduate schools for preparing students for future career and further education as well as undergraduate experience. However, the co-location of world-class professional schools and top level graduate programs can not be discounted. It gives students a significant benefit, obvious, or not-so-obvious (inbreed), for those who want to pursue further career in their respective career path. So if you want an engineering career (SM gives you an edge over HYP, if slight at all), for business (HSM does, along with UPenn), for law (HSY), medicine (H), and etc. etc. That is my analysis result,, nothing more nothing less. IMO, as it stands, H is preferred for P for most cross-admits. Of course you are free to disagree with me: No one is enjoined from expressing his/her own opinion.</p>

133

<p>
[quote]
But, its graduate program is not well recognized as the under program.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let's see some evidence for that. Both f.scottie and I have demonstrated cases where the graduate program at Princeton is very highly recognized. Princeton's philosophy program is recognized as being either</a> the best in the United States or close</a> to it. Princeton's international relations program is similarly</a> acclaimed. As are its doctoral studies in [url=<a href="http://www.nap.edu/dataset/pub/research_doctorate_programs_in_the_united_states/appendix_p/sthhis.xls%5Dhistory%5B/url"&gt;http://www.nap.edu/dataset/pub/research_doctorate_programs_in_the_united_states/appendix_p/sthhis.xls]history[/url&lt;/a&gt;], [url=<a href="http://www.nap.edu/dataset/pub/research_doctorate_programs_in_the_united_states/appendix_p/sthms.xls%5Dmathematics%5B/url"&gt;http://www.nap.edu/dataset/pub/research_doctorate_programs_in_the_united_states/appendix_p/sthms.xls]mathematics[/url&lt;/a&gt;], and [url=<a href="http://www.nap.edu/dataset/pub/research_doctorate_programs_in_the_united_states/appendix_p/stheco.xls%5Deconomics%5B/url"&gt;http://www.nap.edu/dataset/pub/research_doctorate_programs_in_the_united_states/appendix_p/stheco.xls]economics[/url&lt;/a&gt;]. Please do tell how you come to the conclusion that Princeton doesn't have "top level graduate programs".</p>

<p>
[quote]
for law (HSY)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, believe it or not, the Woodrow Wilson school is as good as any program those three offer for law preparation at the undergraduate level. In fact, many students who go to Princeton do so specifically in order to go on to law school after.</p>

134

<p>In Public Affairs, Princeton (Woodrow Wilson) ties for #5 in the USNews rankings:</p>

<ol>
<li> Syracuse University (NY) 4.6</li>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 4.5</li>
<li> Indiana University--Bloomington 4.2
University of Georgia 4.2</li>
<li> University of California--Berkeley 4.1
Princeton University (NJ) 4.1</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In Poltical Science, Princeton ranks #4:</p>

<ol>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 5.0</li>
<li> Stanford University (CA) 4.9</li>
<li> University of Michigan–Ann Arbor 4.8</li>
<li> Princeton University (NJ) 4.7</li>
<li> University of California–Berkeley 4.6
Yale University (CT) 4.6</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In International Politics, Princeton ties for #3:</p>

<ol>
<li> Harvard University (MA)</li>
<li> Stanford University (CA)</li>
<li> Columbia University (NY)
Princeton University (NJ)</li>
<li> University of Michigan–Ann Arbor</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In Poltical Theory, Princeton ranks #2:</p>

<ol>
<li> Harvard University (MA)</li>
<li> Princeton University (NJ)</li>
<li> University of Chicago</li>
<li> Yale University (CT)</li>
<li> University of California–Berkeley</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In Comparative Politics, Princeton ranks #4:</p>

<ol>
<li> Harvard University (MA)</li>
<li> University of California–Berkeley</li>
<li> University of California–San Diego</li>
<li> Princeton University (NJ)</li>
<li> Stanford University (CA)
University of California–Los Angeles</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In English, Princeton ties for #4:</p>

<ol>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 4.9
University of California–Berkeley 4.9
Yale University (CT) 4.9</li>
<li> Princeton University (NJ) 4.8
Stanford University (CA) 4.8</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In History, Princeton ties for #2:</p>

<ol>
<li> Yale University (CT) 4.9</li>
<li> Princeton University (NJ) 4.8
University of California–Berkeley 4.8</li>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 4.7
Stanford University (CA) 4.7
University of Chicago 4.7</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In International Economics, Princeton ties for #2:</p>

<ol>
<li> Harvard University (MA)</li>
<li> Columbia University (NY)
Princeton University (NJ)</li>
<li> University of California–Berkeley</li>
<li> Massachusetts Institute of Technology
University of Michigan–Ann Arbor</li>
<li> University of Wisconsin–Madison</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In Psychology, Princeton ties for #5:</p>

<ol>
<li> Stanford University (CA) 4.8</li>
<li> University of California–Berkeley 4.6
University of Michigan–Ann Arbor 4.6</li>
<li> Yale University (CT) 4.5</li>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 4.4
Princeton University (NJ) 4.4
University of California–Los Angeles 4.4
University of Illinois–Urbana-Champaign 4.4</li>
</ol>

135

<p>If you goole for the Law School Acceptance data, you will find the very significant presence of the inbreed in the Trinity (YHS). You must be all gungho about going to Top Law School from Woody Woo. But sometimes, "reality" is quite different than "what you expect". You'll learn</p>

136

<p>those of course are rankings of GRADUATE programs, byerly. rak's claim, on the other hand, was that "the Woodrow Wilson school is as good as any program those three offer for law preparation at the [<em>]undergraduate[</em>] level."</p>

137

<p>with all due respect, simba, i don't think you're doing much for the level of discourse on this thread.</p>

138

<p>
[quote]
If you goole for the Law School Acceptance data, you will find the very significant presence of the inbreed in the Trinity (YHS).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No doubt. I believe that you'll also find a significant number of Princetonians admitted as well. I wasn't at all saying that going to HYS was a bad way of getting into law school; I was merely noting that Princeton was just as good of a route.</p>

<p>
[quote]
those of course are rankings of GRADUATE programs, byerly. rak's claim, on the other hand, was that "the Woodrow Wilson school is as good as any program those three offer for law preparation at the[<em>]undergraduate[</em>] level."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's exactly right.</p>

<p>Bylery,</p>

<p>What exactly is your point? That Princeton is one of the top political science schools in the country? If so, thank you for making my point for me. (Also be aware that those rankings favor established reputation, and Princeton has only become a powerhouse in fields like IR within the past few years.)</p>

139

<p>Departmental rankings in the sciences:</p>

<p>In Biological Sciences, Princeton ties for #9:</p>

<ol>
<li> Stanford University (CA) 4.9</li>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 4.8
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 4.8
University of California–Berkeley 4.8</li>
<li> California Institute of Technology 4.6
Johns Hopkins University (MD) 4.6</li>
<li> Cornell University (NY) 4.5
Yale University (CT) 4.5</li>
<li> Scripps Research Institute (CA) ** 4.5</li>
<li> University of California–San Francisco 4.4
Washington University in St. Louis 4.4
Princeton University (NJ) 4.4</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In Chemistry, Princeton ties for #14:</p>

<ol>
<li> Massachusetts Institute of Technology 5.0
University of California–Berkeley 5.0</li>
<li> California Institute of Technology 4.9
Harvard University (MA) 4.9
Stanford University (CA) 4.9</li>
<li> University of Illinois–Urbana-Champaign 4.5</li>
<li> Scripps Research Institute (CA) ** 4.5</li>
<li> Columbia University (NY) 4.4
University of Wisconsin–Madison 4.4</li>
<li> Cornell University (NY) 4.3
Northwestern University (IL) 4.3
University of Texas–Austin 4.3</li>
<li> University of California–Los Angeles 4.2
Yale University (CT) 4.2</li>
<li> University of Chicago 4.1
University of North Carolina–Chapel Hill 4.1
Princeton University (NJ) 4.1</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In Physics, Princeton ties for #4:</p>

<ol>
<li> Massachusetts Institute of Technology 5.0
Stanford University (CA) 5.0</li>
<li> California Institute of Technology 4.9</li>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 4.8
Princeton University (NJ) 4.8
University of California–Berkeley 4.8</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In Mathematics, Princeton ties for #2:</p>

<ol>
<li> Massachusetts Institute of Technology 5.0</li>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 4.9
Princeton University (NJ) 4.9
Stanford University (CA) 4.9
University of California–Berkeley 4.9</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In Earth Sciences, Princeton ties for #11:</p>

<ol>
<li> California Institute of Technology 4.9</li>
<li> Massachusetts Institute of Technology 4.8
Stanford University (CA) 4.8</li>
<li> University of California–Berkeley 4.6</li>
<li> Columbia University (NY) 4.4
University of Michigan–Ann Arbor 4.4</li>
<li> Pennsylvania State University–University Park 4.3</li>
<li> University of Arizona 4.2</li>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 4.1
University of Texas–Austin 4.1</li>
<li> Princeton University (NJ) 4.0
University of California–Los Angeles 4.0
University of Washington 4.0
Yale University (CT) 4.0</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>In Computer Science, Princeton ranks #8:</p>

<ol>
<li> Carnegie Mellon University (PA) 5.0
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 5.0
Stanford University (CA) 5.0
University of California–Berkeley 5.0</li>
<li> Cornell University (NY) 4.6
University of Illinois–Urbana-Champaign 4.6</li>
<li> University of Washington 4.5</li>
<li> Princeton University (NJ) 4.4</li>
<li> University of Texas–Austin 4.3
University of Wisconsin–Madison 4.3</li>
<li> California Institute of Technology 4.2
Georgia Institute of Technology 4.2</li>
<li> University of California–San Diego 4.0
University of Maryland–College Park 4.0</li>
<li> Harvard University (MA) 3.9</li>
</ol>

140

<p>So does anyone have any rankings for undergraduate programs in political science? (Am I understanding correctly that Byerly's post # 135 is for graduate programs?)</p>