Harvard vs. Little Ivies (small LAC)

<p>My DD is still working on her list of colleges where she would like to apply, but so far she is aiming for the top schools (HYPS) in addition to the Little Ivies (Williams, Amhearst, Bowdoin, etc). Today i talked with a friend who strongly advised against applying to Harvard and the other larger sized schools, because they are impersonal, large sized classes, tought by TAs, you wont get to know the professors as intimitely as in the Little Ivies, and students could fall in the cracks. Ultimitely the quality of undergraduate education at Harvard is not as good as what you would receive in a smaller college.</p>

<p>To what extent is her opinion accurate? I realize that Harvard has some large classes but how do they overcome that? Will a new freshman feel lost in a crowd?</p>

<p>Btw besides these reach schools, my D also has many target and safety schools on her list.</p>

<p>Hi jazzland - I’d be curious how your friend arrived at her conclusions about Harvard. I don’t doubt that the small LAC experience is much different than a larger university, but the stereotype of large, impersonal classes taught by TFs doesn’t seem to be true based on those with firsthand experience. Harvard may not be a good fit for your D, but I wouldn’t make inaccessible profs one of your concerns
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/1241628-poor-treatment-undergrads.html#post13455801[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/1241628-poor-treatment-undergrads.html#post13455801&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It’s a legitimate concern if she’s interested in economics, government, maybe psychology or bio, and she wants small classes all the way through, rather than having a year or two at the beginning with at least half large lectures.</p>

<p>I take a lot of humanities classes. Of my classes thus far that didn’t fill a distribution requirement, I think only 3-4 have broken 20 people, and one broke 25.</p>

<p>I also spent Saturday night hanging out at my thesis advisor’s house with him, my art history professor, and some grad students; on the other hand, I am also an exceptional nerd.</p>

<p>I have written lots of posts about this topic, so I am not going to give the full treatment.</p>

<p>I went to one of HYPS, as did my spouse. We loved that style of education, and we encouraged our children to value the same thing, which they did (both at the University of Chicago). On the other hand, having spent a great deal of my working life with LAC graduates, and now seeing what has gone on with my kids’ friends and friends’ kids, and knowing a bunch of LAC faculty, I am convinced that good LACs represent a different, but perfectly valid path to the same educational goals as you would find at an elite research university. At most, it’s a question of which style fits your style rather than is one better than the other. But most kids could easily adapt to either style and flourish.</p>

<p>I viewed the presence of grad student TAs as a plus, not a minus, at least in the context of a top university. They are a great bridge between the professors and the undergraduates, and they model the transformation from general education to career. The TAs in courses I cared about in college all went on to distinguished academic careers, not less distinguished than the professors they were working for at the time.</p>

<p>Grad students also add a lot of intellectual vitality to a department. They are around a lot, they are working all the time, writing papers, doing research.</p>

<p>That’s really one of the big differences between going to Harvard and going to, say, Williams. A small-medium department at Williams may have five faculty members (some of whom may be on leave at any point, and maybe/maybe not replaced by a visitor) and 10-15 majors. It’s super-intimate, and everyone knows everyone else really well but . . . everyone knows everyone else really well. The equivalent department at a research university may have 15-20 faculty members (some tenured, some not), an emeritus or two, 40-50 grad students, and an equal number of undergraduate majors. Plus regular visitors and job applicants. There’s a LOT more going on, people working on different things, surprises popping up. For an undergraduate who wants a lot of recognition and faculty attention, that’s a challenge (though not an insuperable one at all); but for someone who wants to immerse himself in the flow of information it’s heaven.</p>

<p>At Williams, all students will know their teachers better than they would at Harvard. No question about that. What’s more, no one gets tenure at Williams without being an absolutely stellar teacher, and Lord knows that’s not the case at Harvard, where pedagogical ability is fairly randomly distributed. (Not surprising, since it doesn’t actually enter into hiring and tenure decisions.) Realistically, though, at Harvard what a student does is to look for 2-4 faculty whom he or she likes, and who are good teachers and more or less work in a field that interests the student. And then the student takes all the classes they offer, and gets to know them, and gets interested in what interests them. The same thing happens at Williams, but that 2-4 faculty may be all or almost all the faculty in a department, and students effectively have no choice but to learn what they are teaching.</p>

<p>I think LACs do a better job of breadth, and research universities of depth. At LACs, every teacher feels a personal responsibility to make certain that all of his or her students have a solid command of the basics in a field, with no gaps in their preparation. The faculty devotes real time and attention to teaching things they don’t happen to be working on at the moment. At research universities, no one has that responsibility, and no one takes it. For the most part, faculty want to talk about the most important, interesting topic available, which invariably is “What I am working on right now.” So students get a lot of cutting edge, but they have to fill in the foundation themselves.</p>

<p>Top LACs send a higher percentage of students to PhD programs than the equivalent research universities. That reflects (a) their excellent preparation, (b) their intellectual tone, and (c) their ignorance of what grad students’ lives are really like.</p>

<p>The ideal at a research university is to major in something not insanely popular. One of my children was in a large department, and never really got close to any faculty, although her education was fine. (She did have close, and valuable, relationships with some graduate students, though.) My other child was in a medium-size department and knew absolutely everyone, worked with and for faculty members, and felt very much like part of the team.</p>

<p>I would note that, or all the twenty-somethings I know now, the ones who are finding the most success pursuing their unique dreams post-college all went to LACs. It’s not a large enough n to be more than anecdotal, but it impresses me. All received enormous support (some of it financial) and encouragement from their departments and alumni networks. If they needed to get involved in university-level research that wasn’t happening at their college, there were lots of ways to do that during the summers, and the colleges really worked with them to make it happen. Just as important, they didn’t get enticed into some easy, well-trodden career path because lots of other people were doing it, or it was prestigious. They stuck to their dreams, and it’s paying off for them, at least this far. The research university types – who were always perhaps more conformist – tend to be following fairly tried-and-true paths, which may not have been the ones they started out with.</p>

<p>A final difference between Harvard and Williams is the relative importance of extra-curricular activities. At Harvard, they are more important than classroom work, far, far more important for many students. They can be the equivalent of full-time jobs, and they are more important to people’s careers than their class work. That is rarely if ever the case at LACs. The extra-curriculars are more amateurish and “fun,” not career-openers.</p>

<p>^Now curious about the full treatment. :)</p>

<p>I’m also curious how people make such sweeping statements as “the quality of undergraduate education at Harvard is not as good as what you would receive in a smaller college.” As danstearns commented, based on what? And based who’s experience? </p>

<p>Speaking as the parent of a student at a “little ivy”, there are lots of kids who would feel as completely smothered at at school with less than 2000 students as my guy would feel overwhelmed at a school with 10,000+ kids.</p>

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<p>I’m glad someone finds the TA/TF system a plus, as my kids number one complaint are the Teaching Fellows. According to them, the TF program is riddled with unevenness – especially when undergraduate TF’s, with little or no teaching experience, are running the sections and grading the work.</p>

<p>JHS: They may not have had undergrad TF’s in your day, but now undergraduate students can take a class in their freshman or sophomore year, and be the TF for the same class in their junior and senior year.</p>

<p>They have undergraduate teaching assistants at LACs, too. I know people who have done that recently at Amherst and Carleton (where, of course, if there is a class large enough to have discussion sections make sense, the only people available to lead them are undergraduates). </p>

<p>When I was in college, that never happened. My TAs were never even first-year grad students. They tended to be people with real expertise, publications, accomplishments. TAs who were important to me went on to chair departments at Harvard, Yale, and Michigan, and in one case to be an extremely successful writer-producer in Hollywood.</p>

<p>I have never heard that Yale has undergraduates TA’ing classes. Extensive use of undergraduates as TFs may be a Harvard thing. I agree, that sounds less than optimal. (Wait. You said “daughters,” and you have one at Yale, right? But she couldn’t have complained about “TFs” because that’s not what they are called in Connecticut.)</p>

<p>^^ Sorry, I did say “my kids.” I should have said my daughter (at H) complains about the unevenness of the TF program, especially of the undergraduate TF’s. My son (at Y) doesn’t complain as much, but still has had to take an occasional paper to the professor to see if he agrees with the grade he was given by his Yale TF. FWIW: They are called TF’s at Yale too: <a href=“http://www.yale.edu/graduateschool/academics/program.html[/url]”>http://www.yale.edu/graduateschool/academics/program.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I’d just like to add my two cents to this lively discussion. My two kids went to LAC’s - neither college had any TA’s - neither of my kids had classes over 25 and most classes had far fewer students than that. At my daughter’s LAC, seniors sometime help out with the freshman seminars (which are capped at 15 students). But they do not teach or grade papers. They are there to offer a student’s perspective to the new college students. I think they’re called proctors, but not sure.</p>

<p>JHS, I was surprised that Williams departments were so small, so I checked out a few on the website. At least the Anthropology and Political Science departments have more professors than the 5 or so you used in your example - the Poly Sci department has many more.</p>

<p>Yes, a little trip through the Yale Daily News archives confirms: </p>

<p>(a) Yale now has “TFs”, although they are still most often called “TAs”. (And maybe both are right, i.e., Teaching Fellows are graduate students in a program which makes them eligible or preferred for positions as Teaching Assistants in particular classes.) In any event, that’s a change from the past, when TA/TF was a Yale/Harvard distinguisher.</p>

<p>(b) Yale does not seem to have undergraduate T[Whatevers], although it very occasionally has non-grad-students in that role (e.g., people with bachelor’s degrees working in research jobs but not enrolled in graduate school).</p>

<p>opine1: It’s not at all surprising that there are more people in the Williams Political Science Department, as that’s a pretty big major there. As for Anthropology . . . you have to pay attention to notice that they combine the Anthropology and Sociology faculty members on the same page. The number of Anthropology professors that I counted was six, charitably, which included two people with joint appointments in other departments, one lecturer on leave, and one visiting assistant professor. I don’t feel so off the mark there.</p>

<p>And, for contrast, I checked the Harvard Anthropology department. They list 27 faculty (a few of whom have joint appointments in other departments), 6 emeriti, and 11 “visitors”, including lecturers. (Once upon a time, I saw one of the professors teach a seminar in a small room, so I can attest that they have at least one fabulous teacher in there.) There are 80 PhD students. Everyone seems to be split about 1/2 “Social Anthropology”, 1/3 Archaeology, and 1/6 Medical Anthropology. Harvard College is (only) three times larger than Williams – from the perspective of Ohio State or University of Florida, Harvard and Williams do not look that different – but the community of professional anthropologists at Harvard is about 20x larger.</p>

<p>Which is not to say that Harvard is “better” for Anthropology, only that there are real trade-offs. The Williams people are probably wonderful teachers and mentors, and a student who follows their lead will learn everything he needs to know to get to the next level if he wants. Students at Harvard are part of a bigger, much, much more vibrant community, with lots more choices.</p>

<p>Jazzland - My kid was lucky enough to get into both Williams and Harvard. She struggled with this decision but ultimately chose Harvard, where she is now a senior. She has many thoughts on this topic and if you would like to PM me, I will tell you her two cents.</p>

<p>This info are very helpful.</p>

<p>At the end of his decision-making process, my son was going back and forth between Harvard and Williams. He did an overnight at Williams, and since we live close to Harvard and he took 2 math courses at the Extension School his senior year, he didn’t feel that he needed an overnight there. In the end he chose Harvard, even though he loved Williams, because he was pretty sure that he would be a physics major, and the opportunities for research at Harvard were far better. By sophomore year, he knew a few professors pretty well; by senior year he knew a lot more. He got a Rockefeller Grant for his junior summer, and this enabled him to go to Europe and work on a research project there. If he had been interested in biology, economics, art history or any number of other majors, he might have chosen Williams, but departments vary widely at these schools. He has never regretted his decision.</p>

<p>My son made a decision between Harvard, Williams and Swarthmore. He found the accepted student days extremely helpful. After talking to and interacting with students and faculty, he liked the feel at Swarthmore best. He’s happy with his choice and the opportunities for academic and holistic growth have been tremendous. There is no one right answer. Each college decision depends on what is the best match for the student’s interests, personality and goals. I strongly encourage prospective students to spend time at colleges, talk to current students and professors, stay overnight and explore both academic and extra-curricular opportunities. Sometimes the best match may not be what you expected.</p>

<p>^Exactly! I was fully expecting to dislike Harvard, because I was having a rebellious phase and didn’t want to do what was “expected.” And once you’ve gotten into Harvard, it is indeed “expected.” So I wanted not to choose it, I really did…but then I got here and realized it was absolutely the best place for me, as well as the most obvious one.</p>

<p>While that was something I discovered only after I was fortunate enough to have gotten into Harvard and a couple comparable schools, doing campus visits can also help, if you can manage them. Sophomore year of high school, Princeton was my #1 dream school. Everything seemed perfect on paper! Then my family went to visit, because it was only a couple hours’ drive away. Hated it. I couldn’t put my finger on why then, and I haven’t figured it out precisely now, but half an hour after setting foot on campus I had decided not to apply. I’m high on the “decisive” end of things–making snap judgments does not come unnaturally to me–but I support the idea of visiting colleges if you can manage it. Even if you can’t get all the way to Williams or what have you, visiting the closest big state university vs the closest liberal arts college vs the closest big prestigious school (if available) will probably help your kid get a sense of the different types of colleges, if not the variation within type.</p>