Seems like this thread is conflating “having to” extol a university’s virtues and ‘wanting to.’ I know Penn’s reputation precedes it. It’s one of only a handful of the most famous and well regarded universities in the world providing an undergraduate education that is second to none. I don’t ‘have’ to write long posts about it; I just want to talk about it because I love it. Every school should have alums so passionate.
I think that when you’re choosing between two schools in roughly the same ballpark – to me that’s top 25, 50, 100, etc. – that prestige should only be used as a tiebreaker, after you have considered fit and cost.
If you feel you’d fit in well at Penn and you’re still apprehensive about Harvard after your questions are answered, go with Penn.
Harvard might be a hair better at some things academically, but it’s really hard to tell at the undergrad level, and I can (almost) guarantee you that all of your Penn profs will be quality profs and if you work, you will learn a great deal and end up with a top-notch education.
And if you’re still worrying about prestige (or if you ever do…), know this: I think Penn is top-10 for undergrad overall and socially, among elite schools it’s top-five easily. (I would put Dartmouth up there too, since you mentioned it).
Work hard, play hard.
@exlibris97 I agree with @PennCAS2014 people here like Penn so they want to talk about Penn.
Also to your other point there aren’t really that many, probably only Stanford and MIT.
Main point: go to Harvard.
CAS student here. Classics program is pretty good, based on friends has more focus on languages (ex. grammar) than the other bits. Academics here are actually intensely rigorous and more difficult than other ivies or equivalents. For instance, economics here is highly technical and about as difficult as the MIT version (compare game theory) and leagues above the Yale version. In that sense, this place sucks. Also there is no grade inflation. In fact, there is minor grade deflation for some awful reason. As a Classics major you’ll probably be fine though.
As for quality of intelligence, I have not met anyone from other ivies or MIT/Stanford who are categorically superior. To be honest (small sample size), it’s been the opposite. This has been one of the most well-read environments I’ve ever been in and conversations can often switch from machine learning to Benjamin, critical theory, phenomenology, politic, etc. For some fucking reason everyone here knows another language and can play a musical instrument.
Penn is hyper-competitive and stressful af. There’s a big hookup culture. It’s not great for relationships. People can be assholes and very unfriendly. Most everyone is in a state of existential despair over OCR, being coerced into finance/consulting/tech, and their gradually sinking GPA. NOTE: 50% of our undergrads go into finance/consulting which is twice that of other ivies (except Columbia). ANOTHER NOTE: You are a Classics guy and that is going to fucking suck. Idk about Harvard, but clubs here are also incredibly difficult to get into. You need a resume (lol). There are constant parties. Everyone’s always drinking or smoking up. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Sunday is more of a rest period, as is Monday and Tuesday but if you’ve got a group of friends you will most likely be able to hang out and drink whenever you want. It’s expensive.
It’s true that people here are smart, party a lot, etc. But it is difficult to be happy at Penn. Let me reiterate. It is difficult to be happy here. I’m sure other ivies suffer from this as well,and maybe it’s just looking for greener pastures but Harvard’s grade inflation is bound to help.
@humanbean12 based on all your other posts you seem like you don’t like Penn at all and if you are in fact a Penn student i am sorry you made the wrong college choice for you. Not minimizing your opinion, but that is your view and many of the things you say are not exactly true
In my time at Penn I rarely met people who were unfriendly. Yes people are competitive with themselves and push themselves hard but they also take the time to help out each other and collab.
Also the hookup culture does not exist any more than in similar schools (just because there was a silly article 4-5 years ago saying this doesn’t make it true. I was still at Penn when it came out and everyone was like wth is this?!)
Regarding finance/consulting keep in mind that Penn has Wharton while other ivies do not. so of course Penn is bound to have more people going into these jobs.
Not all clubs are difficult to get in. Yes there are a few that are difficult to get in, but most really aren’t and there are so many clubs at Penn that one is bound to find their place.
Most people do not drink or party all the time. They have too much work to do that. Yes they go out once maybe twice a week but that is it.
Lastly just because you are not having a good time at Penn it doesn’t mean it is difficult to be happy there. There are many people who really fit in at Penn and have a really happy college experience.
Hope it gets better for you and maybe you could consider transferring?
@humanbean12 - thanks very much for your candid post and for presenting a view that cuts against the echo chamber often found on this board. You say “it’s difficult to be happy [at UPenn]” and that’s an important realization for you. I encourage you to accept this and to work hard to find the niches/pockets that make you happy. Penn is a huge school and, as a result, has many silos and niches. Find yours.
@Penn95 says…
“MOST people” do not drink and party all the time;" “MANY people really fit in at Penn,” re finance and consulting (bc of Wharton) “MORE people are bound to take these jobs…”
Let’s take what’s implied in your post… it leaves considerable room for SOME people who may feel quite different. You say many and most feel a certain way, so surely some must not, right?
College is all about proportions, and the question is, how many are in that group of “SOME people”?
I have a hunch that you and @humanbean12 have a VERY different perception of how many people are in that “some” group.
I’m pretty sure Adam Grant, the members of Penn’s mental health task force, Hikaru Kozuma (Penn’s excellent vice provost for undergrad life), CAPS counselors, and many others may have a different view than you, too.
Again, not saying Penn’s problems are worse than other schools, because that ruffles too many feathers here. I’m just saying @humanbean12 points should be heard carefully, because they resonate with what many others are saying, and show that Penn - not compared to anywhere else, just on it’s own based on what concerned community members are saying - has a lot of work to do.
@Cue7 here we go again.
I truly do not get your point. Yes some people of course do not fit in. That is true for any school. What I am saying is more accurate than saying ALL students are a certain way or that is is hard for ALL to feel happy at Penn.
As i said above i am not minimizing that the poster above feels or has experienced but it is important not to make sweeping generalizations and to remember that this is his view, and many others do not feel this way/did not have the same experiences.
Same goes for your own views. There are many things you don’t like about Penn. But that doesn’t mean these things are seen as negatives at Penn by most others or that they should change. Many of the things you do not like about Penn actually give Penn its unique identity and are a major attraction for applicants.
You can’t know what the Provost or CAPS counselors think. As for the Adam Grant article there are many issues with it as we have discussed before: saying Penn has a the most competitive culture he has personally ever seen doesnt make Penn an outlier in terms of competitiveness. He went to college a long time ago and the schools he went to , taught at are not traditionally considered intense/ competitive. But we have already gone through all that.
Btw you shouldn’t be saying that Penn’s problems are bigger than other schools because it is simply not true, not because it ruffles feathers. And it ruffles feathers simply because it is not based on the truth.
Of course no one is saying Penn is perfect and that there isn’t work to be done.
Re comparisons between schools - it’s not worth getting into here, but there is significant scholarship/work on this. As a start, you can check this on mental health across the ivies: http://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2015/10/mental-health-around-the-ivies
Also, did Penn finally release the results of the mental health task force survey? They released conclusions publicly, but, any current (or prospective) Penn student should ask for survey results. Thats a helpful document. The Brown Daily Herald reported their school’s results, Many other schools did too.
Interested parties can also ask admins for health counselors per capita, look into avg. wait times for mental health centers, types of centralization on campus (are all groups housed under one roof - or are there many and different offices overseeing groups?), (looking at Clery Act crime reports between colleges isn’t a bad idea either).
This forum - and the biggest posters here - make this space a suboptimal place for a comparative discussion, but for interested parties, do some digging. Pull the survey results, see the data released by schools, do some analysis, etc.
Re the “of course not ALL people fit in at Penn,” the key is to determine what the proportions are. You say “most people do not drink and party all the time,” and, re finance/consulting “more people” look into this area, but interested parties can delve into what the estimated numbers are, and see if they are comfortable with these numbers. What is “most people”? How do we define “many people”? Every person has a different tolerance for this. While the proportions made UPenn seem ideal to you, the proportions are clearly off for @humanbean12
As I said above, college - especially top colleges - is all about proportions. If say, 50% of employed grads at UPenn went into finance/consulting, vs. 20% at another top college*, what speaks more to the consumer of this info? It’s an individualized choice, of course, but there’s lots of data out there. If say, mental health survey results find that 33% of Penn students binge drink on a weekly basis, that’s a minority, but it may be too much for some.
Your posts, however, don’t present numbers/evidence. Rather, they tend to present broad, bland, pleasant-sounding generalizations about the school (most people aren’t competitive, most people fit in, there are “lots” of spaces for everyone). How the heck can we know that “most people at Penn aren’t competitive”? Based on my anecdotal experience, I actually agree with you - I didn’t find students competing with one another often, but I also know this was just my skewed view. In this way, your posts remind me of admissions work - it presents a pleasant view that can cater to a broad swath of people.
I doubt Admissions brings up the mental health task force report and reasons behind it, the internal push for a larger sexual violence prevention office, the sudden, reactionary infusion of resources/hires at CAPS, etc. When other posters raise these issues, you address them concomitantly, but fall back to the mantra of “all schools have problems and should improve.” Again, it reminds me too much of admissions-speak, and maybe this agitates me because I view admissions officers so skeptically.
To sum, I think Penn is a good school, and I am lucky to hold a degree from there. It is also a deeply complicated place, and you too often just skim the surface of this complexity. (And yes, I understand that “all schools are complicated places.” I’m only situated to comment on a few, though.)
- Penn keeps excellent career reports, and they can be found here: http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/reports.php - for the past few years, across all Penn schools (Wharton, liberal arts, nursing, engineering) fin/consulting jobs make up about 45% of the jobs grads take immediately after graduation.
** Lots of other schools offer good career reports. Again, I don’t want to get into comparison’s here, but just google “x school’s career outcome report,” and there’s usually data out there. Cultural Climate survey reports are also an excellent place to check. Just google “x school’s climate report or x school’s student culture report.” Many schools now release data on binge drinking, inclusion issues, etc.
@Cue7 lets start from the career survey report . In CAS, 30% of the 66% that get jobs right after college, go into finance/consulting. This is 20% of the CAS responders. Now keep in mind that within this CAS population there are many dual degree kids (CAS wharton) who of course gravitate towards those industries. So after you take the dual degree kids out the % of the CAS population going to finance/consulting is probably around 10-15%. nowhere near 45% in any case.
For SEAS, 35% of the 76% of students who are getting jobs straight after graduation go to finance consulting. This is about 27% of the total people in the survey. Again there is a big number of wharton dual degree students in SEAS ( 55 students replied on the survey to be exact). This is 15% of the total survey responses.
So the percentage of non-wharton kids on the survey that go into finance/consulting is 12% of the total reconsider.
By comparison the Wharton survey shows that about 43% of responders are going to consulting/finance.
So yes i am right when I am saying that it is Wharton that skews the numbers upwards. As it is expected to.
Also yes i do believe that all schools have issues. And i do object to your portrayal of penn has having more issues than other schools. But also do agree with you that Penn has a lot of work to do on all of the areas you mentioned. Never said Penn is perfect.
but also keep in mind that a lot of what you are describing are preferences. What you might not like many others do. There is a lot of data out there for prospective applicants to look into and decide for themselves.
Regarding most of my statements, I provide evidence where it is possible. Regarding the competitiveness of the students i can only share my experience and many other people on the forum have corroborated my account.
I am not sure I understand the issue about finance and consulting.
D is in CS, and her primary interest is in tech. She was contacted by a few finance companies about internships this summer. She decided to stay focused on tech, but if the right opportunity were available down the road, may she would be interested. I don’t think so at this point, but people’s interests change. I don’t think that is a bad thing. It is just another option that Penn students have available to consider.
Also, as far a crime goes, the Penn campus is the worst place to commit a crime. There are police and cameras everywhere. Anyone committing a crime on Penn’s campus is going to be caught. Criminals know that.
@Much2learn and @Penn95
Maybe I’m reading the career survey data wrong - when I looked at undergrad career summary for the class of 2016, I saw that 25% of those that seeking jobs got positions in finance, and 17% seeking got jobs in consulting. So, for the entire undergrad, doesn’t that mean, of those that got jobs, 42% of the students went to fin/consulting?
If a student is interested in proportions, they could then compare this overall number to other schools. Yes, they could also drill down farther to see which schools/majors send the most to these industries, but the overall number is important too. It demonstrates what a big chunk of job seekers are seeking, and the schools and dual degree programs don’t exist in silos - it looks like there are some definitive disproportionate interests at work here.
@Much2learn - Please don’t make meritless statements like “the penn campus is the worst place to commit a crime and criminals know that.” How the heck could you know or say something like that?
For people interested in UPenn’s crime stats, their division of public safety has kept detailed crime reports for many years. Google upenn public safety clery reports, and you can get the data. They break it down by type of crime, frequency, etc. You can Google clery data for any other college too to compare.
“The penn campus is the worst place to commit a crime…” my word, that’s an unfounded statement made worse when we have detailed data at our finger tips that you didn’t bother to mention…
@Cue7 yes but the biggest chunk of that 42% is wharton. when you look at individual school data you see that CAS and SEAS students have much more diverse interests similar to other elite schools. As for Wharton of course a huge number of people go into finance/consulting, that is expected. As I showed above the difference between Penn and other top schools is driven primarily by wharton. People from around the world flock to wharton undergrad because they are interested in business. So it is not reasonable to compare Penn as a whole to other elite schools that do not have undergrad business schools.
What @Much2learn meant is that here is a huge number of Penn police officers around campus at all times. So yes the campus is pretty safe of course it is in west philly after all so caution is required, as is with many other campuses. And in the rare cases that anything happens right on campus, Penn police responds very quickly. So yes the Penn campus is a the worst place in the area for someone to commit a crime as they will most likely be caught.
@Penn95 - honestly, with a big plus at Penn undergrad being the “one university” policy, why does it matter if most of the 42% comes from Wharton? Wharton isn’t in a silo - all schools are part of the “one university” policy. All these students are living together, eating together, joining the same clubs, etc.
I will NOT compare Penn to another college, but is this much different than a situation where most of the fin/consulting types major in econ? One could argue “yes, 42% of our college job seekers go into fin/con, but the vast majority of that group are econ majors”. Who cares? Again, they are all part of the same undergrad - mingling together, living together, etc. The data still shows that one industry has a fairly disproportionate impact and weight on campus - even if most going into that industry come primarily from one major (or one school).
In my hypothetical, it’s perfectly reasonable to think that those NOT majoring in econ (in english, art history, whatever) have more diverse interests. The point is, disregarding the major/school, if 40%+ of your job seekers are going into one sector, that’s a pretty big gorilla in the room.
(Especially when you consider that there is no accreditation for banking/consulting - Penn has a great nursing school, but only those going to nursing school can be registered nurses.)
Put another way, whether it’s Wharton, econ majors, stats majors, whatever, the overall proportions matter, and the 42% number is telling. Interestingly, some other top schools also send 40%+ of their grads to these industries, and there are other top schools that don’t. That’s not a good or bad thing, just something that consumers should take into account. And, there’s ample data out there to assess.
Also @Penn95 - @Much2learn said: “… as far as crime goes, the Penn campus is the worst place to commit a crime. There are police and cameras everywhere. Anyone committing a crime on Penn’s campus is going to be caught. Criminals know that.”
How do we know that “anyone committing a crime on Penn’s campus is going to be caught”? How the heck can you say that? Further, why would criminals know that? Also, does s/he mean the worst place “in University City,” or a broader area? S/he doesn’t specify, and I think you’ll agree, the statement is both remarkably ambiguous*, and vaguely positive about Penn without presenting any evidence.
Further, I contest your point that the campus “is the worst place in the area to commit a crime” because college students, typically, open themselves up to crime more than most. If you look at crime data, there are actually some neighborhoods just west of Penn that are actually SAFER than the campus itself. I’m guessing, in those residential neighborhoods composed of young families, you have fewer instances of people walking around drunk at 3am (easy targets), and less opportunity for the biggest criminals on campus - students themselves - to commit crimes.
(Remember, on almost any college campus, the most frequent crime that takes place is student on student.)
*To combat the needless ambiguity, just look at UPenn’s safety reports for the past 7 years, found here: https://www.publicsafety.upenn.edu/clery/annual-security-fire-safety-report/ There’s detailed data there. All schools are required, by federal law, to produce such reports. So see how the rates of burglaries/robberies/violent crime compare on a per capita basis to other schools. All the data is there!
@Cue7 i dont agree. Wharton of course is not a silo but it is extremely self selected, it attracts students very interested in these specific industries. So yes it matters that most of the kids going into finance/consulting come from Wharton. if it was the case that 42% of CAS and SEAS students also went into finance consulting, then there would be a case that Penn students have rather limited professional interests. I do agree that this influences the undergrad culture overall, but obviously it doesnt dominate give that non-business majors go into finance/consulting in similar proportions to other top schools.
Comparing Wharton to the Econ majors at another comparable university is not accurate. Wharton is way more self-selected in terms of interests. It is not the same.
Regarding security, we can say that because whenever there is a rarely a crime in the middle of campus, usually a little bit outside, and when it happens penn police sends out notifications within minutes and addresses the situation. in terms of security Penn has been doing a great job i feel.
We can say what, @Penn95 ? That “anyone committing a crime on Penn’s campus is going to be caught”? Apparently we’re both not comfortable saying that, because you qualified this statement to read “they most likely will be caught.” (By the way, we don’t know that either, do we? There is no data on attempted crimes, success rate at catching attempted criminals, etc. You’re making a statement for which there is no basis.)
Also, are you arguing that, instead of Penn undergrad at-large having “rather limited professional interests,” it’s actually Wharton undergrad that has limited professional interests? Business is a very large industry, but a huge chunk of Wharton undergrad goes into two very specific sectors. So, would you say that Wharton undergrad has a more limited professional focus, whereas the broader college does not?
Also, if a disproportionate number of Wharton students go into fin/con, how can you tell that it “doesn’t dominate undergrad culture” because Penn non-business majors go into fin/con in similar proportions to other top schools? We don’t have any data/evidence on how a certain field/culture/school can “dominate”.
There are no publicly available reports on the success rate for non-Wharton penn students seeking jobs in these industries. It could be that a very high number of non-wharton majors seek fin/con jobs, but don’t get them. OR, it could be just what you say, but we DON’T KNOW.
My hunch is that Wharton, traditionally, has held outsized influence at the University. I can’t verfiy this, though, so I’m not going to take this assertion any further.
Finally, this is incontrovertible: if nearly half of the job seekers enter a specific field, disregarding if they come from one school or not, you better believe that knowledge/conversations/notice about this field is in the air. These students all eat together, live together, etc., and this becomes a big part of the culture, whether or not other students actually go in that direction.
An example, if you permit me a moment to compare Penn to a school that is NOT a direct peer: Carnegie Mellon has a vast array of wonderful departments (a top-class drama school, actually), but the dominant vibe on campus, from what I know, is interest in the tech space. Most students don’t actually enter this industry, but the culture is impacted by the influence of its world-class comp sci program. Just because the bulk of students don’t go in this direction does NOT mean a certain industry doesn’t have a disproportionate share of the limelight with a school’s culture.
And one more example, from Stanford: recently, their Dean of Admissions has expressed concern about the school turning into “the Stanford Institute of Technology.” https://stanford.app.box.com/s/y4abufqg66nte7uax6eq (p. 23). Stanford has phenomenal strength on the humanities, but the outsized influence there seems to be tech/comp sci. Interestingly, the majority of students do NOT go directly into this area, but it’s pinpointed as an industry with outsized influence.
I’m not sure why the overall college data wouldn’t point to fin/consulting being outsized in influence at Penn. If anything, having this industry be coveted by Wharton (historically the most elite, most coveted, wealthiest Penn school) might actually INCREASE its allure to the general penn population, no?
@cue7 “@Much2learn - Please don’t make meritless statements like “the penn campus is the worst place to commit a crime and criminals know that.” How the heck could you know or say something like that?”
When did you become the person who decides what statements people can make and can’t make on the forum, while making it clear that your main objective is to complain about Penn and brag about your beloved Maroons?
It makes sense to ask why I believe the statement, but not to tell me what to say and not to say, or to decide what I can or can’t know.
My source for the information is that I happen to have a first cousin who has been a security officer on campus for many years. I asked him a lot of questions when D was deciding to attend. He is very aware of what crime is occurring regularly. He says that the most common crimes involve kids who live in the area, often under 18, stealing an unlocked bike, or trying to grab a phone out of a students hand and run with it, or grabbing a computer that is left on a table alone by a student. These are petty crimes and the perps are caught with a high degree of frequency because there are so many police and cameras around the campus.
I also spoke with one Penn student who said two area kids grabbed her phone and ran while she was texting and walking on campus. She said she immediately caught a cab to the Apple Store to get a replacement, and then called the campus police to report the crime. She said that by the time she called the Campus Police from the Apple Store maybe 30 minutes later, to report the crime, campus police already had the thief in custody, and her phone, and were in the process of trying to contact her. That is what I mean by it is a really bad place to commit a crime.
I know you think that it isn’t useful information if it did not come from a book, but I agree with the immortal words of Yogi Berra, “You can observe a lot, just by watching.” (And I would add, “And asking questions.”) 
Okay, so you really want to argue that when I said anyone who commits a crime on campus is going to be caught, that is not true. Okay, you are right. What I really mean is that it is very likely that they will be caught.
I am pretty sure that most of the readers on this forum are intelligent and understood that before. This is a forum not a court of law. I think the meaning was completely clear from the context.
I have no authoritative power here - I can’t decide what statements you can or can’t make. I simply asked that you don’t make meritless statements. (I quote: “Please don’t make meritless statements like…”)
Also, please note, since my past discussions with @Penn95 I’ve taken care to NOT compare Penn to “my beloved Maroons.” (FYI, did you check out my thread on how UChicago is DECLINING? You should - I shower the university with love by starting an entire thread devoted to its failures! http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/1954996-u-of-chicago-is-university-strength-declining-p1.html)
Thank you, by the way, for substantiating your claim - it’s great that you have a first cousin security officer at Penn, and good that you spoke with one Penn student who had a good experience with public safety. Note, I CANNOT decide what you say, but it’s helpful to provide such substantiation in your posts.
This being noted, your statement of: “Anyone committing a crime on Penn’s campus is going to be caught. Criminals know that,” is still meritless. To prove this, we’d need to demonstrate that 100% of attempted and actual crimes committed resulted in the criminals getting caught. Further, if criminals did indeed “know that,” you’d see crime trend toward 0. The data doesn’t show that.
I should add, your post #35 did a lot more to add value - because you provide observations, not just assertions. In this way, Yogi Berra’s words ring true - but he’s talking about observations, not the meritless assertions you made in post #29.
Also @Much2learn - you state that “criminals know [that anyone committing a crime on Penn’s campus will be caught].” How the heck do we have any idea what criminals know? Maybe your first cousin UPenn security officer has some info on this - but then please provide it!
Otherwise, it looks like another meritless claim. I have no idea what criminals know or don’t know, and I suspect your insider’s knowledge of the criminal element in West Philly is limited. Please, though, by all means, prove me wrong and substantiate that statement.
(I should also add, crimes are notoriously under-reported on college campuses. I imagine that illegal drug sales happen at Penn, for example, and are either under-reported or just not reported. Such a trend would fly in the face of @Much2learn assertion that those who engage in criminal activity at Penn “will most likely be caught.” Penn, like any other college campus, has a tremendous amount of criminal activity that goes unreported, and I suspect that illegal drug sales are the highest chunk of this activity. If you just read @Much2learn cheery statements on campus crime, however, one wouldn’t see that side of the coin. The Clery Report - the actual data - btw, shows that Penn has a noticeable rate of disciplinary referrals for alcohol and other drugs. Again, I will NOT compare Penn to other schools, but anyone can compare Clery reports between institutions.)
@cue7 Penn has outstanding security and students feel safe there.
There are hundreds of those blue light phones that connect students to DPS, and all of those have cameras, and there are hundreds more cameras on top of that, and lots of police officers and security officers in cars, on foot, and on bikes, on and near campus 24/7, and the walking escort service will walk any student to where they need to go 24/7 if they don’t feel safe walking alone, and student feel safe on campus. There are still areas beyond a few blocks from campus where students do not feel so safe at night, but they either don’t go there in the middle of the night or they ask to be escorted. Also the areas of Philly that are less safe are not in the direction that students usually want to go. Beyond that there are many more safety features like the locked buildings with Penn Card access, amnesty for intoxicated students who are merted voluntarily, and I am sure I am leaving out many more safety features.
What I do not understand is how you don’t already know all of this if you have spent any time on the Penn campus?