<p>Periwinkle, What do percentages have to do with pool size? Percentages are used precisely when you want to compare something over different pool sizes. I mean, wow! There goes the stereotype that Asians do poorly in CR compared to Whites.</p>
<p>I wonder how Asians do in the English APs compared to Whites. Anyone has stats?</p>
<p>". 1. Not sure what a favored EC might be but if Harvard is going to denying otherwise worthy applicants it should just state the diverse ECs that it wants so those Asians will take up the trombone vs the violin, get killed playing football vs tennis. " </p>
<p>Again, you are saying things that don’t make sense or deliberately (?) missing the point. Are you saying that Harvard is racist if they don’t publish a list of every single EC they might be looking for? That’s just silly. The most desirable ones are probably the ones Harvard hasn’t even thought of. And anyone can tell what Harvard might be looking for-- just look at the activities and clubs they offer. Of course they are looking for kids who play the trombone since they have music ensembles that require trombone. Harvard has a football team so obviously they need football players. But they are also looking for kids who really care about what they are doing not the ones who are doing it to get into college, so your list proposal is self-defeating. </p>
<p>Of course Harvard also wants scholars, but I doubt those are defined merely by SAT scores. The student mentioned submitted math and history SAT2 scores. Harvard’s math scholars have already learned much of undergrad math and have distinguished themselves in math competitions far more difficult than the college board’s tests. I’m sure they also have history buffs who have done significant historical research or related EC’s. An 800 on the math or history SAT2 pales by comparison.</p>
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<p>You mean, as if it were divided into categories? </p>
<p>Have you ever heard of subjective judgement? Where someone could say, we consider all the categories? We do not give more weight to test scores than the other parts of the application? Without filling out a spreadsheet?</p>
<p>@poetgrl, I found this: <a href=“http://www.act.org/newsroom/data/2013/pdf/profile/National2013.pdf[/url]”>http://www.act.org/newsroom/data/2013/pdf/profile/National2013.pdf</a> </p>
<p>71 K Asian/Pacific Islander students took the ACT. More than 1 million white students took it. As some states require all students to take the ACT, it’s not easy to compare.</p>
<p>Mavant, you are over generalizing to make your point. 1 to 2 percent dropped out of your med school? So do you know where the rest ended up? You previously alleged that not one of them ended up practicing in African American neighborhoods. again, where is your evidence?</p>
<p>Zekesima, that 1-2% drop-out rate is also very much in line with national trends of the United States Medical Licensing Exam Step 1. If you don’t pass, you don’t graduate. If you don’t graduate, you’re not a physician. And yes, I do know where they ended up: not practicing medicine. So, yes, my original assertion that they haven’t served their communities as practicing physicians is correct.</p>
<p>Periwinkle, ok mate, let’s agree to disagree, no harm no foul, eh?</p>
<p>User51969, the pool size determines how many students score above whatever effective floor the admissions team looks for. We are discussing a case which accuses Harvard of discriminating against Asian applicants. However, there are more than enough potential applicants scoring above 700 in the world to give Harvard a wide range of students from which to choose. </p>
<p>And having looked again at the document, it lays out a procedure for admission (no idea where they got it.) If true, after a first round of weighting for the categories of academics, extracurriculars, personal qualities, and athletics, some 5,000 to 7,000 proceed to committee, at which some 35 admissions officers vote, deciding by majority ballot. (page 42) </p>
<p>Uh…I’m not asking you where the drop outs ended up practicing (which is obviously nowhere), but where those who stayed and finished ended up practicing?</p>
<p>Periwinkle, the effective floor being so low makes the case for Harvard. It expands the pool and dilutes the argument. If we made the floor a 780…I wonder what percentage of Asians get rejected with 2340+ as compared to everyone else. </p>
<p>Periwinkle, I was just surprised that Asians do better that Whites in SAT-CR. Now the ACT data you provided shows that Asians do better than Whites in writing too. There goes the myth that Asians are weak in reading or writing. Clearly they excel there just as they do in math, though the White kids are close. That’s all really. Carry on.</p>
<p>Periwinkle your SAT data is over representative of those who score 700 or better on all sections. SAT does not provide composite scores by ethnicity, however, the ACT does.</p>
<p>In 2012, 222,237 Blacks took the ACT. This is the breakdown of the number of Black students who scored 30 to 36 ACT composite.</p>
<p>5 Black students scored a 36 ACT
14 Black students scored a 35 ACT
49 Black students scored a 34 ACT
111 Black students scored a 33 ACT
202 Black students scored a 32 ACT
332 Black students scored a 31 ACT
553 Black students scored a 30 ACT</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.act.org/newsroom/data/2012/pdf/profile/AfricanAmerican.pdf”>http://www.act.org/newsroom/data/2012/pdf/profile/AfricanAmerican.pdf</a></p>
<p>An ACT of 31 is about a 2100 SAT. In 2012, there were less than 700 Black students to score ACT 31 out of 222,237 and only about 1200 who scored over ACT 30.</p>
<p>Compare the above with Asian students.</p>
<p>There were 68,080 Asian students who took the ACT but there were about 12,000 Asian students who scored above 30 ACT. In fact, there were more Asians to score 36 ACT than Blacks scoring above 33 ACT.</p>
<p>218 Asian students with 36 ACT vs 179 Black students with 33 ACT or higher </p>
<p>mathyone I was being a bit tongue and cheek. I just wanted you to know that the whole concept of having the favored EC is a bit difficult since no one knows what they are. Does it really make a difference if the whole point of “holistic” is to find well balanced smart students. There has been much about Asians and tennis, but the same can be said of Whites and Cross Country or Field Hockey or Soccer. Why is one sport better than another? </p>
<p>It is just strange that Asians are being punished for doing well on tests and in the classroom. Because of this, there is a belief that Asians must not have a life outside of studying. If my son and his friends are any example, this in definitely not true. And then this is warped to Asians are tennis player and violinists, but even if that were true so what! </p>
<p>I’m not Harvard. I don’t even care about Harvard, as my kids didn’t fall in love with it. </p>
<p>However, the danger of giving people numbers to rank each other with is that it tends to crowd out common sense. I am tired of seeing dads on CC, and pundits, treat SAT scores as if they were the Word of God. </p>
<p>I would personally not give athletics much, if any, weight in the process. And “personal qualities” is nebulous, although I’m sure Harvard alums could defend it. However, no one died and gave me my own university to run, so my opinion means nothing. The Harvard folks do seem to have a talent for spotting nascent movers and shakers in high school applicants.</p>
<p>Zekesima, then you have misinterpreted my point. URMs who have been given multiple chances at my school and have failed out were all originally labeled “more qualified or equally qualified” compared to Asian students who never gained a seat. I am basically looking at outcomes and not supposed “potential.” </p>
<p>As for the 1 URM classmate from my school who did finish, she did a residency at Cedars. </p>
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<p>Do you have cites for this? You’ve clearly registered simply to post on this thread. We’ll need some cites. </p>
<p>(responding to post 210)</p>
<p>So what? Did they apply to Harvard? </p>
<p>This isn’t a debate about Ethnic Wonderfulness. It’s a debate about a terribly argued, poorly sourced, train wreck of a document leveling a serious allegation at a leading university.</p>
<p>@mavant
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<p>When did 700 become “low”? Is a 700 (I assume we really mean 2100) a score that should put applicants in the reject pile, their other accomplishments be darned? </p>
<p>I believe it’s the 98th percentile of all SAT test takers, is it not? Why would Harvard think that “too low”?</p>
<p>Top 2 percent is like 40,000 kids though. Not that impressive for Harvard. It’s like being the school captain in tennis (every school has one).</p>
<p>Okay, Mavant, I was simply asking why you alleged that African American med school grads NEVER serve their communities (your words, my emphasis). You still have not presented any evidence to support such an amazing claim except your own limited experience at a school where, for some reason, there was an incredibly high attrition rate for African American students. There are lots of other medical schools with much better grad rates for African Americans, and many of those grads go on to practice in the black community. Just for the record…now I’m off to bed.</p>
<p>Periwinkle What the heck are you talking about??? You are the one who tried to show that there were an abundant number of URMs to fill Harvard’s entire freshman class. If all Blacks with 2100 SAT applied, they could barely field enough to fill the class, but since they do not all apply to Harvard there are only a handful of those who score above 2100 SAT. So what that means is that the average Black students at Harvard have SAT scores well below 2100 which would put them well in the bottom 25% tile.</p>
<p>OHMomof2 We had this discussion in another thread. Harvard’s average SAT is north of 2300. 2100 SAT is high but not by Harvard’s standards. </p>
<p>poetgrl, if you think the world of college admissions is secretive, welcome to the next level of secrecy…namely medical school admissions.</p>
<p>Here is the official data by the AAMC: <a href=“https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/157998/mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html”>https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/157998/mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html</a></p>
<p>Combined with acceptance rates by race and scores:
<a href=“http://www.aei.org/publication/acceptance-rates-at-us-medical-schools-in-2013-reveal-racial-profiling-and-affirmative-discrimination-for-blacks-hispanics/”>http://www.aei.org/publication/acceptance-rates-at-us-medical-schools-in-2013-reveal-racial-profiling-and-affirmative-discrimination-for-blacks-hispanics/</a></p>
<p>I find it interesting that opponents to Affirmative Action are typically asked to provide citations whereas proponents often do not do the same. </p>
<p>Let there be no mistake: there will be a large healthcare shortage of practicing professionals and qualified Asians are denied seats in favor of “more qualified or equally qualified” URMs who have much lower objective qualifications (GPA/MCAT).</p>