Harvard, you have been served

[GMTplus7]

<p>Racial diversity for the sake of having different races is vastly over-rated. </p>

<p>Right now, I work/live in Asia where the local population is entirely racially Asian. I have an Asian-American expat colleague whom everyone initially mistakes for a local. Funny think is when I talk to this colleague, I never think of this person as a “local”, I think “American”, because culturally this person is nothing like the locals in terms of values, mannerisms, education, speech, clothing. Similar dynamics with a Chinese-Aussie expat attorney I know. When I talk to him, I don’t see an Asian face, I see an Aussie one. After an introduction, the locals relate to them as Westerners, not Asians </p>

<p>What matters in our business is what we contribute, not what race we are. At U.S. colleges, on the other hand, kids aren’t individuals. They are representatives of their race, and they get default awards or dings, accordingly.</p>

[GA2012MOM]

<p>Ah jeez, good laugh of the day VOR:…the term “STEM wanna be.” Yep, EVERYBODY wants to be a STEM major. L-) And please, tell me once again why it is soooo important that Harvard changes their admittance policies? Please just choose a school that agrees with your backwoods ideas and move on.</p>

[bogibogi]

<p>@xiggi, I remember when he didn’t get into the top schools because CC essentially blew up. IIRC, he admitted to not checking the Hispanic box. So if that really is the case, he would really help the plaintiff’s case. I have the utmost respect for that impressive young man.</p>

[GMTplus7]

<p>

And please, tell me once again why it is soooo important that Harvard changes their admittance policies?

Because H receives federal funding, so it’s subject to Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which prohibits racial discrimination by educational institutions which receive federal funds. </p>

[voiceofreason66]

<p>GA2012 Well not everyone, but there are a lot kids who do want to be in STEM and unfortunately many don’t cut it for one reason or another and transfer out to major in less demanding majors. Although you don’t think that’s a shame, I do. Getting a STEM degree opens many more doors than getting a Fine Arts degree as well as much higher starting salaries and job opportunities. </p>

<p>One major reason is college mismatch.</p>

[Periwinkle]

<p>VOR, do you know anyone who would leave Harvard to remain in a STEM field, rather than, say, graduate from Harvard with a concentration in Folklore and Mythology? </p>

[texaspg]

<p><a href=“Stanford Symphony Orchestra performs Mahler's Symphony No. 6 - YouTube”>Stanford Symphony Orchestra performs Mahler's Symphony No. 6 - YouTube;

<p><a href=“Harvard-Radcliffe Orchestra - YouTube”>Harvard-Radcliffe Orchestra - YouTube;

[GA2012MOM]

<p>Crap…and to think my darn kid was a Classics major. What the heck was she thinking? Oh that’s right, it was med school. I will make sure she knows that VOR thinks her Classics degree is less worthy than a degree in STEM.</p>

[User51969]

<p>Wow this thread is buzzing! Guys I think we are really complicating a simple thing here. We all know the facts. There are only so many seats. If the college believes in AA, it has to bump some other race to make room. So Asians are bumped. Since the bumping is by academic performance and Asians being academically motivated have high academic index in general, several high academic Index Asians are bumped in favor of lower academic index AA kids. What’s so complex about this?</p>

<p>PS: Hey pizza girl you want to give me a chance to explain myself? Lololololololol you are a hoot mate. This is the internet so take it easy.</p>

[voiceofreason66]

<p>Periwinkle If I were a student accepted to Harvard and was at the bottom of the entering class, it sure would make a difference to me if I knew that since I wanted to be a STEM major that my chances of obtaining such a degree would be hindered by going there. I wouldn’t want a Harvard degree knowing that it would be in Folklore or Mythology. I’d go elsewhere. BTW I received a degree in Math.</p>

<p>The problem is that young students and their parents get tunnel vision when presented with an opportunity to go to such a prestigious institution as Harvard but they are never brought back down to reality of what might occur to their children’s dream of getting a STEM degree before they make the decision of which college to go.</p>

<p>When Harvard and other elite institutions in an effort to foster diversity accept students that are academically a mismatch, it creates bigger issues down the road. As wonderful as a Harvard degree is, it in my opinion is not so great if an URM can’t get the degree the URM wants. An URM is not going to be an engineer with French Literature degree even if its from Harvard.</p>

<p>GAmom If your daughter with a Classics degree made it to medical school, I’m sure she didn’t have the typical Classics curriculum. I bet she took medical school prerequisites and did well in them and could have gone on to a STEM degree if she chose to do so. She was most likely an academic match for the school she attended. Good for you daughter, but she is one of the kids I’m concerned about. But if she only had a Classics degree and didn’t make it to medical school how well off do you think she would be?</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

@voiceofreason66 : The general argument made by those who see the that Asians have the highest SAT and GPA stats and claim this discrepancy is not a showing of discrimination always turns to other factors that no one has any knowledge or data. It is always, Asians must be lacking in leadership, ECs, essays, or any number of other factors. However, the data for the non Asians for these same factors are nonexistent. So either one can assume that the Asians are less worthy in these other factors or that they are on par. If Asians are on par then why are Asians have the lowest admit rates at each score/gpa bucket?

</p>

<p>

@pizzagirl : They don’t claim that they take Only The Very Smartest People as if they rank all 30,000 apps on pure smartest and take the top 2,000 from the top. They all, in different ways, want to identify an interesting “stew” of people who, when put together, can accomplish great things. That involves some of all types. It means some math geeks who burn the midnight oil, and some class-president push-the-flesh types. It involves some classical pianists and violinists, and others who start quirky alternative music groups. It includes all types.</p>

<p>You may think that they “should” take Only The Very Smartest, and rack-and-stack SAT scores, but they don’t want to.

</p>

<p>

pizzagirl: But you keep defining qualified as SAT/GPA, because that’s all you know. You really have a hard time breaking out of your cultural mindset. We all do, no shame in that.

</p>

<p>Can someone explain to me how you can respond to the first quote with the last two?</p>

<p>I’m baffled.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>That’s not a fair assessment, GMT, and you know that. No one is saying that “race” is ALL they contribute. </p>

[GMTplus7]

<p>

That’s not a fair assessment, GMT, and you know that. No one is saying that “race” is ALL they contribute.

Ok, you’re right; it’s not all, but it’s a lot. It’s not credible that H is not invoking a quota, when it ends up w the same racial percentages in its student body every year, and the percentages of these races in the US population is changing quite a bit.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

At U.S. colleges, on the other hand, kids aren’t individuals. They are representatives of their race.

</p>

<p>Although I do not believe it to be true --students are individuals in terms of admission and in terms of attendance-- assuming it were true, couldn’t you ask yourself WHY college officials are preoccupied with the racial distribution or representation at their school? Could it be that they recognize that the country is a true melting pot of various cultures and that their school should have a semblance of what the country is in general. Or could it be, when unchallenged by the hands of justice (as misguided as they often are) they rather not adopt the type of dysfunctional policies presently seen in some western state? </p>

<p>People have fought really hard to obtain the civil rights we currently have and fought very hard to bring about policies of affirmative action. The reality is that we, as a society, are NOT there yet in terms of equal rights. The biggest indictment of AA is that we … still need it in spite of decades of purported efforts to eradicate racial injustices. </p>

<p>Allow me to look with a shrug at the debates about highly qualified individuals been foreclosed to attend HYPS and forced to “settle” for JHU or WUSTL on their way to become highly paid doctors, or forced to attend CMU or Caltech to become the next Sheldon Cooper or Bill Gates. </p>

<p>The remaining inequalities are blatant in our K-12 system --and Asians are not immune to them as they are also highly represented in the lower SES and especially when stemming from agrarian Asia. Take a closer look at many urban school districts that are highly URM (and Way ORM in that case) and realize how far we have to go! </p>

<p>Along the way, we can present the students attending those ghetto schools that they should be “all they can be” and that they should study to ensure an escape from their dire circumstances. In a way, the Asian model is one that shows the need to study and use education as a differential trampoline. The differences are that the minorities in the US do not have the benefit of a culture that has witnessed the benefits of education in a tangible way. As we know, families with highly educated people have migrated to the US and have been forced to toil in menial jobs despite their education. On the other hand, the history of the US is different for many URM. </p>

<p>In this regard, the example of people who “made it out” are important. The fact that schools such as HYPS do reach out to uncover a few gems and make a dozen spots available should be applauded. As we know, the schools have done a better job at trying to emulate the population races than their income. The percentage of low SES students at the schools debated here remains extremely low, and … we DO need a lot more tangible role models. </p>

<p>We have a long way to go, and the path will never be perfect. When it comes to HYPS where 19 out of 20 are rejected, it is not hard to understand the desire to fault an imperfect system that balances many pressures. I have NO doubt that well deserved Asians are among the people who could and should have been accepted. And so are … white, browns, or reds! In the meantime, we should remain steadfast in protecting the rights of schools to contribute to a better society by making the effort to attract disadvantaged students who happen to have the bad luck of being born with the wrong set of parents. </p>

<p>And, finally, here is an example of why it is important. Many people here know this young man, and some are his friend: <a href=“http://mdtubbs.com/”>http://mdtubbs.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It is not about why he attended Stanford, but about how everyone at Stanford got better from his presence and contributions. And, like it or not, he did not steal someone’s spot. He earned it through a lot more than acing tests and homework. </p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Michael Tubbs is indeed impressive, and you know darn well that there were likely legions of people whining that he blocked their / their kid’s “rightful” spot at Stanford because look-I-can-wave-higher-SAT-scores-around.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>“That’s not a fair assessment, GMT, and you know that. No one is saying that “race” is ALL they contribute.
Ok, you’re right; it’s not all, but it’s a lot.”</p>

<p>And yet Asians are overrepresented relative to their size in the pop, and Jewish students are too. </p>

<p>You know who’s REALLY underrepresented at the big schools? Southern White Protestants from rural areas. </p>

[Periwinkle]

<p>VOR, it may surprise you, but there are people who do not believe that being an engineer is the peak of human existence.</p>

<p>Really. I kid you not. (Do I need a /sarc tag here?)</p>

<p>The New York Times ran an article some time ago about the known effect of students who had the scores to complete STEM majors switching out of those majors. <a href=“Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard) - The New York Times”>Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard) - The New York Times; By no means do students switch only from “mismatch.” The subjects may not be taught as well as other subjects, and students may discover they enjoy other subjects more. Even students with 800 on the SAT math. </p>

<p>Nor are students who don’t major in math doomed. You mentioned fine arts. The heads of major art museums can earn millions. Good marketing and development people are hard to find. Etc.
<a href=“http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2012-01-06/postrel-how-art-history-majors-power-the-u-s-[/url]”>http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2012-01-06/postrel-how-art-history-majors-power-the-u-s-&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[xiggi]

<p>

When Harvard and other elite institutions in an effort to foster diversity accept students that are academically a mismatch, it creates bigger issues down the road.

</p>

<p>You love facts, don’t you? Have you looked at the graduation rate at Harvard? Do you really think that Harvard creates many academic mismatches through a failed system of admissions? </p>

<p>And since you like comparative math, should we take a look at schools such as Caltech or Berkeley in terms of graduation rates and academic … mismatches? And aren’t those considered the model sought by the plaintiffs who brought that lawsuit? </p>

<p>Funny how that works!</p>

[texaspg]

<p>

It is not about why he attended Stanford, but about how everyone at Stanford got better from his presence and contributions.

</p>

<p>AhHHHH. The gall of Stanford to waste a perfectly good seat reserved for a tall black kid with great football catching hands on someone who wants to serve his community. No wonder Jim Harbaugh moved to the pros. </p>

[GMTplus7]

<p>

…couldn’t you ask yourself WHY college officials are preoccupied with the racial distribution or representation at their school? Could it be that they recognize that the country is a true melting pot of various cultures and that their school should have a semblance of what the country is in general. Or could it be, when unchallenged by the hands of justice (as misguided as they often are) they rather not adopt the type of dysfunctional policies presently seen in some western state?

</p>

<p>@xiggi. Who says CA admissions is dysfunctional? Arguably it’s VERY functional. After prop209, kids sorted into schools of academic rigor commensurate w their academic ability, and graduation rates improved. MI probably sees the same.</p>

<p>I absolutely support that economically disadvantaged kids should be cut some slack. I strongly support socioeconomic affirmative action for kids of ALL colors. But in comparing kids w similar socioeconomic backgrounds, all admission criteria standards should be applied evenly. As i posed to @pizza, being class president for a rich black kid shouldn’t be worth a 10, when for a rich white kid it’s only worth a 6.</p>