Harvard's Admissions Dean has a Blue Collar Background and wants more Such Admits

Parents Forum
81

<p>One wonders what lessons are taught through economic diversity if the diversifiers arrive with chips on their shoulders like Fitzsimmons recalls he had.</p>

<p>Not long after Fitzsimmons arrival in Cambridge, I arrived at a like place from probably equally modest financial circumstances. Instead of being appalled by my classmates, I was thrilled to be among them. I find his choice of adjective appalling. He could have described himself as "stunned", but I assume he remembers his feelings accurately. I suspect he feels the same way today. </p>

<p>It seems as though the class envy we see at affluent high schools where many teachers resent the students driving to school in nicer cars than theirs is alive and well on the faculty and staff of the elites. </p>

<p>Whether much of this forced diversification should be part of the mission of Harvard or any other educational institution is a serious question. As institutions raise the "priviledge rectification" plank of their platforms, balancing the benefits of it with the actual costs will be a challenge.</p>

82

<p>
[quote]
Now to be totally straightforward:
Can't private schools spend the money to run credit reports on noncustodial parents, or can't the custodial parent just pay a fee to have the report run, and save students the pain of getting someone in the community to sign a form or write a letter that says "My dad's a deadbeat?"</p>

<p>Why should the colleges do so? On top of dealing with 20k applications? And sometimes, colleges consider the deadbeat dad problem not their problem. That happened to an applicant to BC. BC made it clear that it disapproved of the deadbeat divorced dad, but would not budge on the finaid.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Dadx:
Ah, but the story is not about Fitzsimmons arriving resentful. It's really about his loving it so much that he is still there 44 years after first setting foot on campus, and making it his life's work to getting others like him to attend.</p>

83

<p>"Ah, but the story is not about Fitzsimmons arriving resentful. It's really about his loving it so much that he is still there 44 years after first setting foot on campus, and making it his life's work to getting others like him to attend."</p>

<p>I agree. Fitz is so pro Harvard that until I read the posted article, I had thought that he was a Boston Blueblood who came from a family that had gone to Harvard for generations.</p>

<p>It's normal for people who are different from the mainstream at a college to feel uncomfortable and even resentful at the college. From what I've seen, it's also normal for such people to eventually become some of the college's most loyal and respected alum.</p>

<p>For instance, I can remember attending a student activist meeting at Harvard back in the early 1970s when a student leader fiercely suggested that we consider burning down Wiedner Library. </p>

<p>Out of curiosity, I recently Googled that person and found a pix of a grandfatherly looking guy whose bio proudly stated that he's very active in Harvard's alum affairs, and now holds a doctorate from Harvard. In fact, I think he even had gotten some kind of award from a local Harvard alum group.</p>

<p>For that matter, I was angry at Harvard most of the time that I was there, and participated in some protests -- including building takeovers -- against it. </p>

<p>I became a very loyal alum who also has been active in alum affairs at the national level.</p>

<p>One of the good things about Harvard is that it tolerates a great deal of anger and active disagreements by the students. The administrators take a long view of those kind of things. They appear to view such things as signs that students are thinking and are learning to be leaders. </p>

<p>Actions like protests that would get students permanently kicked out of other schools are tolerated by Harvard, and it's not unusual that the students who protested the most eventually become extremely suppportive alum or even faculty as well as major leaders in their communities or in the country.</p>

<p>Lani Guinier -- who is a tenured prof at the law school -- is just one example. She was a very angry undergrad who led a variety of protests against what she perceived as Harvard's being racist.</p>

84

<p>"Colleges like Harvard are interested in attracting kids of blue collar workers not necessarily because blue collar workers are low income, but because blue collar workers' offspring are unusual at colleges like Harvard."</p>

<p>Assuming facts not in evidence. ;) If they were "interested" in attracting kids of blue collar workers, they've had them. There is no shortage of intelligent, gifted blue-collar kids. There is no shortage of money at these institutions, no shortage of outreach efforts shown to be successful at other schools, and no shortage of efforts that could be made to ensure the kids succeed. If the schools were "that" interested, the kids would be there already.</p>

85

<p>"If they were "interested" in attracting kids of blue collar workers, they've had them. There is no shortage of intelligent, gifted blue-collar kids. "</p>

<p>There is a relative shortage of intelligent, gifted blue-collar kids who are college bound and who have the academic prep to succeed at a place like Harvard. This is because blue collar kids aren't as likely to get shunted into the AP and other rigorous classes as are kids of parents from professional backgrounds. Even if GCs suggest that they take those classes, the kids may refuse because their neighborhood friends aren't in them or because they think the classes would be too hard.</p>

<p>There also is a shortage of intelligent, gifted blue-collar kids who are college bound and who would want to go to a place like Harvard, a place that many people from nonaffluent backgrounds would view as a place for snobbish wealthy people whom they'd feel uncomfortable with.</p>

<p>For many intelligent kids from blue collar families it's an enormous stretch to even go to their local public university. Going to a place like Harvard would seem to many to be so far outside of their comfort zone that they wouldn't want to do it.</p>

<p>Unlike affluent and upper middle class parents who may be eager for their kids to go to a place like an Ivy, blue colar parents may discourage their kids for fear that their kids would become ashamed of them or become so different that they'd no longer fit into the family.</p>

<p>When I taught college, I repeatedly saw kids from low income and blue collar families who were sabatoged by their parents who apparently felt threatened by their kids' getting a college education. Of course, this was not true in all cases, but I did see it several times. I never saw it with blue collar/low income immigrants (who presumably had come to the U.S. for educational opportunities for their kids), but I did see it with several students whose parents were low income or blue collar native born Americans.</p>

86

<p>I was looking at the profiles of vals from Boston schools a couple of days ago. Boston schools are full of low SES kids, some from immigrant families, some from low SES native born Americans. I was struck by the number of kids who planned on careers that did not require a liberal arts education: hotel management, health services, etc... Obviously, these kids did well academically. They also seemed highly motivated, clear-eyed, and likely to be successful. But going to a liberal arts school whether top or third tier was not part of their plans.</p>

87

<p>If I understand him correctly, mini is suggesting that there are many (if not an abundance of) blue-collar kids who are prepared and would go to Harvard (and privates elsewhere) if provided with the opportunity and support.</p>

88

<p>"There is a relative shortage of intelligent, gifted blue-collar kids who are college bound and who have the academic prep to succeed at a place like Harvard."</p>

<p>Gordon Winston's study pretty conclusively proved the opposite. There are more than 2 1/2 times as many low-income students who meet the current requirements of prestige colleges without lowering any purported standards than actually attend. (Granted, that is "low-income", as opposed to "blue collar" - you could probably double that number, given the number of higher income blue collar workers.) </p>

<p>AS to whether they want to attend, or whether they would feel welcome, well that's Harvard's (or any other school's) job to admit them, fund them, and make them feel welcome - if they choose. (since most don't choose, it's really not an issue, and I don't think they are under obligation to choose othewise.)</p>

89

<p>I don't know if there's an abundance of such kids when one excludes kids who are offspring of immigrants from Asian and Africa (who may have come to this country for the education, and who may be very educated themselves, but unable to get jobs in professional fields here).</p>

<p>What I have seen is that high schools that are in areas with an abundance of low income and blue collar people tend to have very weak AP programs, and that means that even their vals may lack the academic prep and scores to be able to pass at a place like Harvard. For instance, I've seen vals from such schools who had top grades, yet section SAT scores in the 400s and low 500s. The factor that most relates to SAT scores is the rigor of the curriculum, and unfortunately not a lot of blue collar and low income students take rigorous curriculum. Even if they are able to take AP courses, the courses may be weak as reflected by the low percentage of students getting passing scores on the APs.</p>

<p>The quality of teaching that low income and blue collar kids get also tends not to be as strong as the quality of teaching that more affluent students get due to the differing strengths of their school systems, which are related to property taxes and parental involvement and sophistication.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, too, the schools that serve low income and blue collar people tend to teach kids to memorize, do exactly what the teacher says, get credit for rote assignments like defining words and outlining chapters, and not think outside of the box or do research papers. Those are not factors that would make one appealing or successful at a place like Harvard.</p>

<p>I have done a lot of volunteer work with all kinds of schools, and have seen first hand the differences in teaching and expectations.</p>

90

<p>Re post 87. No, there are plenty of blue collar and low SES kids who are well prepared, are even offered full rides and choose not to attend. The story related in the article is telling: A young woman from Oklahoma, admitted, flown to Harvard at its expenses, and decided to attend U of OKlahoma instead. Her reason was a good one: she wanted to be a housewife and she did not need to go to Harvard to achieve that goal (and probably would have greater difficulty achieving it at Harvard than on her homeground).
There are many qualified students who prefer to stay close to home for a variety of reasons. It cuts the pool down substantially.</p>

91

<p>The Gordon Winston study was based solely on SAT scores. The 2 1/2X figure was based on SAT scores that would currently qualify the students for admission to top-tier prestige private colleges, without any "special" admissions whatsoever.</p>

<p>But it takes work! It took Smith almost 30 years to attract and retain a student body with 27% of the student body on Pell Grants (and well more than that blue collar.) It has taken Amherst almost a decade to get to 17%. It costs money - lots of it - time and commitment, both in the admissions department, and the rest of the campus environment. Most colleges have pretty much concluded that they don't want to expend it, as is their right. And it is no great loss: the prestige privates' loss is UCLA's, Berkeley's, and the public honors colleges' gain.</p>

92

<p>^^^^^^^And it is no great loss: the prestige privates' loss is UCLA's, Berkeley's, and the public honors colleges' gain.</p>

<p>mini, don't forget the merit granting LAC's and Uni's. They get some of those kids, too.</p>

93

<p>They do, although statistically not so many. (More in the $100-$160k income range.)</p>

<p>They also go to Berea, though, again statistically, taking into account the income restrictions on even applying, it is more difficult to get into than any of the prestige schools.</p>

94

<p>Interesting start to the article:</p>

<p>
[quote]
when nuns at a Catholic high school told the graduating senior William Fitzsimmons to avoid Harvard, a school of "communists, atheists, and rich snobs" where he would "lose [his] soul."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For two reasons:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>He did go to a "private" high school.</p></li>
<li><p>With Harvard's new curriculum effort courses in religion will become required.</p></li>
</ul>

95

<p>


</p>

<p>Yes. It's fine to talk about what proportion of Harvard's undergraduate enrollment ought to be made up by students from what economic stratum, but the students still have to apply to be admitted. There has been a lot of back and forth here about my statement that I think William Fitzsimmons is making an honest effort to increase the number of enrolled students at Harvard from less-typical backgrounds, and poorer backgrounds. (I didn't say it in quite those words upthread.) Nothing that has been said in response to my earlier statement proves it wrong, and indeed the recently redoubled efforts by Fitzsimmons to publicize the Harvard financial aid initiative would suggest that he agrees that more needs to be done, which is what he explicitly said in the article cited in the thread-opening post. So I'm not sure what there is to debate here. For a blue-collar kid (however defined) to become part of Harvard's class, the blue-collar kid has to apply. I read Fitzsimmons's statements as saying that he would give careful consideration to applications from such students.</p>

96

<p>"...when nuns at a Catholic high school told the graduating senior William Fitzsimmons to avoid Harvard, a school of "communists, atheists, and rich snobs" where he would "lose [his] soul."</p>

<p>I laughed when I read this since I graduated from this same Boston suburban high school a few years later. I was also from a blue collar background.</p>

<p>When I accepted a spot at a Seven Sisters college, a nun told me that "I would never fit in with those rich girls" and that I would regret my choice. </p>

<p>Happy to report that both Fitzsimmons and I didn't listen to the good sisters!</p>