<p>
I believe by most any classification , minimum wage workers would qualify as lower class or "working poor", not blue collar or middle class. But your point is a good one, that being that these words have no meaning except in context.</p>
<p>Re Post 60:
...and if mini is correct regarding such low percentages of admits, this puts to rest the assumption that a large percentage of low-income <em>preference</em> exists at the Elites, in admissions selection. According to admissions officers, qualified URM of any income level is still an edge over qualified non-URM of low income, and the statistics would tend to bear that out.</p>
<p>Mini,</p>
<p>Thanks for posting some of the numbers. having been through the process twice and watching the overall student bodies it seems to me that it is the middle class that is getting squeezed in admissions. This is not really a crisis, it just means they do not go to certain schools.</p>
<p>What I worry about is that the population on campus that is supposed to represent "diversity" is not composed of the middle class, i.e. $60K-$160K. If the objective is to have diversity or perhaps represent the real world the current formula does not do it.</p>
<p>Obviously, this is more of a generic problem than a Harvard problem.</p>
<p>Eagle,
I am sure that the majority of students at Elites are not middle-middle-class. However, there are plenty of them, there (depending on how one defines "plenty," I guess). The probability that they are not the majority income population does not mean they are not there in significant numbers. It is still true that the elites currently enroll a greater range of income levels than do many publics. For some students, this is important.</p>
<p>"What I worry about is that the population on campus that is supposed to represent "diversity" is not composed of the middle class, i.e. $60K-$160K."</p>
<p>I think you are being pretty expansive in your definition of "middle class". The middle quintile in this country is roughly $45-$65k; the next "upper middle" quintile is roughly $65-100k. Folks in the upper quintile (top 20%) - $100k-$160k are actually doing quite fine in admissions, and are the main beneficiaries of the "no-loan" policies. At least at some institutions (Amherst and Princeton are the ones for which I have the best data), it is the middle and upper middle $45k-$100k) that is vanishing, except for URMs and recruited athletes.</p>
<p>Mini:</p>
<p>If Princeton is giving full rides to students with family income of less than $60k and beating the bush to identify qualified students in that income bracket, why are students in the $45-60k range vanishing? Or do you mean $60-100k?</p>
<p>Epiphany,</p>
<p>Perhaps, as Mini suggests, I am being too expansive. I guess what I am asking is what is the percentage of "middle class" are attending many of the schools? Using the quintile breaks that Mini refers to I guess I am asking what percentage of the middle 3 quintiles are at the schools . . . I am pretty certain it is not 60% regardless of the institution we use as an example.</p>
<p>Still not certain what the solution is but I suspect it will continue to get worse as long as the cost of education increases greater than the rate of inflation.</p>
<p>I agree, Eagle, that it's probably no 60%.</p>
<p>Another interesting article on Harvard's quest to recruit low SES people. From the Crimson, 2005.</p>
<p>"Recruiting a New Elite</p>
<p>Can HFAI make us more accessible? </p>
<p>Taking the microphone at a forum on socioeconomic diversity last April, a Harvard undergraduate opened up about the culture shock he had experienced after arriving in Cambridge as a freshman. The student, who hailed from a working-class background, said he found himself alienated by the wine-and-cheese atmosphere on campus. He then gestured to the back of the room. </p>
<p>Heads turned. Glass bottles of Pellegrino mineral water and Martinelli’s sparkling cider dotted the refreshments table, standing alongside a generous spread of cheeses, crackers, and baked bruschetta. It was a repast fit for a royal—and an ironic culinary choice for an event highlighting Harvard’s efforts to attract the underprivileged. ..."</p>
<p>It includes this on Admissions Dean Fitzsimmons:</p>
<p>"FITZSIMMONS himself arrived in Cambridge in 1963 amid Harvard’s burgeoning meritocracy. A working-class Massachusetts native, he was warned by the head of his parochial high school that Harvard was a “godless and communist place.” </p>
<p>“Anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, a bunch of rich snobs, a bunch of Communists, a bunch of atheists,” Fitzsimmons recalls being told of the Kremlin on the Charles. </p>
<p>A goalie on the Harvard hockey team, he worked for dorm crew and class reunions to earn extra money as an undergraduate. At the April forum, he told students, “I was angry when I arrived here.” </p>
<p>“As a student from a blue-collar background, I was rather appalled by the wealth of the place,” Fitzsimmons said. “To say I had a chip on my shoulder would be a wild understatement...."</p>
<p>Been there, even at just Big State U many years ago. My wardrobe was a third of the size of my roommate's during freshman year. But I did have one Izod.</p>
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My wardrobe was a third of the size of my roommate's during freshman year. But I did have one Izod.
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</p>
<p>Looking at my S's friends, the degree of scruffiness is in inverse proportion to the amount of finaid. Everyone agrees that the free ride kid is the preppiest looking of the bunch; the ones on partial aid look half-way decent, and the ones whose parents pay full fare seem to be dressed with Goodwill castoffs.</p>
<p>I once knew a young man who went around in shoes held together with duct tape. It turned out his father owned a shoe factory.</p>
<p>"Looking at my S's friends, the degree of scruffiness is in inverse proportion to the amount of finaid. "</p>
<p>I remember seeing that at the LAC where my mom was on staff. She told me about one student who went around bragging that he had silk underwear and was wearing silk sweaters. The student was first generation college, and was one of the poorest kids at the college.</p>
<p>The wealthy kids wore patched jeans and similar attire.</p>
<p>When I was at Harvard, it was rare to hear anyone talking about someone's clothes (though I do remember a guy making fun of my taste-challenged boyfriend's pants, which were too high). Students were far more interested in others' intelligence and ability to make wry quips.</p>
<p>I have always contended that preferential admissions policies should always take socio-economic factors into account. The child of a Colin Powell or a Harry Cizneros(?) are hardly the types of students who will bring maximum diversity to the college campus. More diversity will result from a white Cajun from Lafourche Parish, La.</p>
<p>Certainly. Someone has to tell the Thibodeau and Boudreau jokes.</p>
<p>On clothing, and then some serious numbers:
Perhaps Dear Child should ask students at colleges on her short list what brand of jeans they wear to class. Good way to find "The Perfect Fit."</p>
<p>Numbers from MIT brochure: 16 percent of undergrads come from homes with incomes below $42,000. Saw somewhere else in Viewbook that a large number are from public schools.
So give my kid the rest of the breakdown, elites: How many from $42,000 to $142,000? Or even $42,000 to $80,000 or $100,000?
Kudos to the MIT brochure for being upfront about expected "personal contribution," i.e., how much the student personally is willing to commit to for their education. That approach varies at Davidson, Emory, etc...
And double kudos for profiling a student who had to deal with the paperwork and family issues when filing for finaid with divorced parents. I suspect that hurdle keeps many from applying at all.</p>
<p>
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And double kudos for profiling a student who had to deal with the paperwork and family issues when filing for finaid with divorced parents. I suspect that hurdle keeps many from applying at all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Many of those students end up as what the linked study called "credit constrained," and those students end up applying only at colleges with a low list price (e.g., state universities). </p>
<p>Now to be totally straightforward:
Can't private schools spend the money to run credit reports on noncustodial parents, or can't the custodial parent just pay a fee to have the report run, and save students the pain of getting someone in the community to sign a form or write a letter that says "My dad's a deadbeat?"</p>
<p>"In the northeast, firemen, cops, nurses, construction workers etc. are considered "blue collar" but make well over minimum wage."</p>
<p>I'm from the NE, and nurses who are RNs were not considered blue collar workers. Blue collar workers were factory workers, construction workers, mechanics, plumbers and people holding jobs like being store clerks and fast food workers that didn't require college educations. The pink collar jobs such as people who are beauticians also would qualify for a similar status. </p>
<p>Basically blue collar meant employed, but hasn't had a college education. In other words, the applicants whose parents were in such backgrounds were likely to be first generation college.</p>
<p>Many blue collar workers in California doing contract work make a lot of money, pay little taxes, and are considered "poor" on IRS papers. Similarly with small shop, restaurant and hair/nail store owners, landscapers,...</p>
<p>Colleges like Harvard are interested in attracting kids of blue collar workers not necessarily because blue collar workers are low income, but because blue collar workers' offspring are unusual at colleges like Harvard.</p>
<p>Depending on what their jobs are, blue collar workers can make six figures. One shouldn't assume that being blue collar = poverty. However, probably most people in blue collar jobs are not college educated, and lack the sophistication about the college application process that many professionals have due to their own educational experiences.</p>
<p>Blue collar workers and their offspring also are probably more likely to view a place like Harvard as not being appropriate for them even if they are high stat students.</p>