Harvard's Dean Leaves, Cites Need For Undergraduate Focus

Parents Forum
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<p>It's too bad to see this thread turn so ugly so quickly. Obviously, there's merit to this issue for Harvard and other top schools. </p>

<p>Chinaman, you are off-base with your response. Plenty of kids make a decision to avoid Harvard in favor of schools like Brown, even when they have a good shot at Harvard. Not everyone drinks the kool-aid. I have no axe to grind with Harvard because my own son decided not to apply for various reasons - no sour grapes from me. But, responses that accuse Brown students of generally not being good enough for Harvard makes me want to gag. Such is a madness in which some kids just don't want to participate - and this is at no fault of Harvard.</p>

<p>And I'm sure Yale is not far removed from this problem, as are none of the "tall trees". However, that doesn't excuse any of them from addressing it and doesn't mean that we should resort to insulting students and their opinions as a means of diverting attention from the issue. </p>

<p>As I said before, I consider this a problem and am concerned about my own son at Penn. If Harvard addresses the issue, the others might follow suit.</p>

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<p>Chinaman, are you a parent? I'd hate to be your kid...and too bad I know kids who have turned down Harvard for Wash U, Stanford for Dartmouth (not that that's much worse off, in either case, in my opinion), Yale for Vanderbilt, and others. It's A SCHOOL, just like any other. It's not special just because it's Harvard, it's special because it's good in x departments and it's got x famous professors and whatever, and that may be right for some people, and not right for others. Harvard will always be picked above other institutions because it is Harvard. By prestige whores...</p>

<p>Concerning the OP, it's sad because Dartmouth is continually criticized for being so undergraduate focused and "not being prestigious enough because it doesn't have a lot of professional schools." I think the real point is, people don't know what the hell they want.</p>

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<p>I don't find this thread particularly ugly, momsdream, (though thats pretty harsh there, Xanotos, Chinaman adds a unique and valued perspective to these boards, and I'm sure he's a fine father). The question of the lack of focus on undergraduates at Harvard, or many other great research universities, including Penn, is a frequent topic of discussion here on CC, and kids looking for strong focus on undergraduates get lots of advice where to find it. President Summers himself has been quoted here many times saying something along the lines of, if that's what your looking for, try Williams or Amherst. It's not what everyone's looking for, obviously. My kid was exactly not looking for a place where he and his fellow students were the focus--from his perspective, he wanted to try to become a part of something much bigger than himself. His Mother and I actually lobbied for Williams and Dartmouth, but he made an informed choice of a research U. and he's happy with it. Places such as Harvard have been dealing with the issue of focus on the college side of the university for a long time, but they are what they are, which is nothing short of stupendous.
Still, any discussion of Harvard here, or elsewhere, seems to bring out an urge to take potshots, I guess even I can't resist from time to time, despite having the utmost respect for the place. The book "Privilege" which were discussing is quite critical, in its arrogant Harvardian way.</p>

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<p>I have good reason to believe that the quotation attributed to Summers is spurious, but even if he said it, that wouldn't be an argument against going to Harvard for a lot of learners.</p>

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<p>Coudn't agree more, TA. Spurious, eh, that's interesting, never did sound right since increasing focus on the college is one of his goals.</p>

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<p>Finally! Thank you at last for saying it!

[quote]

Harvard is just a college, a very good one with many wonderful opportunities and offerings, but I cannot say that there is anything so unusual or fantastic about it, besides prestige and perhaps the caliber of the student body, which would make it the best or only choice for everyone who is or might be admitted.

[/quote]

I feel that part of the admissions process not only serves to secure the best and brightest students, but to build a population of students that will learn from and be inspired by each other. H is not perfect for everyone, and no one should ever let a name become more important that an education - because frankly, you should be happy and feel as a part of the school while you are there, or else there is no point in attending.</p>

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<p>Maybe I am missing something but I didn't see "Brown" taking any potshots at Harvard, nor did I interpret the deans comments as much of a slam. She is really only stating the obvious. </p>

<p>Ask anyone who ever went to Brown-- they will verify that Brown is not "after" Harvard, Yale, or anyone. Brown is different. People within Brown do not feel the competition element that Chinaman refers to; they feel Brown has already "won" on its own terms, by doing its own thing. Brown is not trying to be Harvard. Apples &oranges.</p>

<p>Just as Brown's undergrad focus & unique tone appeal to certain students who prefer Brown to Harvard (or any other place), those same aspects will appeal to certain faculty and staff. Others will like Harvard better for a variety of reasons.</p>

<p>For staff and faculty, this is a particularly exciting time to be at Brown. Usually glacial changes are happening very rapidly. If dozens of new faculty are being hired, of course the person charged with appointing faculty will be drawn to Brown! She is more a lynchpin and has more to do.</p>

<p>I recently met another fairly new Brown hire (also formerly of Harvard :)) whose job is on the financial/endowment/development end. She was saying how exciting and interesting her job is because of the bold actions taken by Ruth Simmons. Brown is, essentially, making rapid MAJOR changes (faculty hiring/need blind admission/no work study for frosh/beefing up many facilities) that require piles of money to implement-- and the CFO has to scramble to build endowment & giving in order to "catch up" with these innovations. Scary, challenging, and for the right person, FUN. Again, you are more essential and there is more to do.</p>

<p>It seems really clear to me that Brown is trying to surge forward and make itself an even better place, but I do not believe the endpoint of this forward movement bears much relationship to Harvard. Brown is trying to be a better Brown.</p>

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<p>SBmom makes a very good point.
I interpret the dean's leaving not as an indictment of Harvard's supposed lack of focus on undergraduate education but as a comment on the excitement of being an administrator at Brown as it seeks to hire more faculty and expand curricular offerings, etc... which is the area this dean will be working in.</p>

<p>When I was a grad student at H, there was a feeling that we were not as favored as undergrads. I do not think that this feeling has dissipated among graduate students. One of the features of the Harvard curriculum is the large number of classes which are open to both undergraduates and graduate students. This format may intimidate some undergraduates. For my S, it was a point in Harvard's favor as he considered its merits against those of another excellent school that had the reputation of discouraging undergraduates from taking graduate courses. As others have said, it's all a question of fit.</p>

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<p>As a Brown alum, I would agree that I did not read the admin's comments as a putdown of Harvard, but merely as an acknowledgment that Brown does not have a law school, business school, big grad school, etc. Back in the Dark Ages when I attended, there were quite a few students in my freshman dorm with Harvard acceptance letters on their bulletin boards. They went to Brown because they wanted Brown. It is its own place. I say this as the parent of one student who seriously considered Harvard and not Brown, and as the friend to several Harvard students who have had amazing experiences there. Each of these schools has much to offer -- to a student who has drive, dedication, intellectual hunger, and lots of energy.</p>

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<p>Colleges do not change life that can provide $$$$$ , otherwise, all college professors will be Bill Gates. One has to work hard and use their talent to go ahead in real life. Bookish knowledge alone does not result in $$$$$$. In real life different people use different passion to pursue.</p>

<p>Xantos: My own son will choose wharton even though he is in HY. My kids are free to make the choices. Somehow I just do not like staement which tell people that H is an isntitution bad for undergrad. If that was the case more than 20,000 people will not apply. </p>

<p>Momsdream: Plenty of kids apply to other school as they find something which interest them. If we take your argument that means plenty of kids do not appply to harvard beacuse it is not undergrad focussed. And you did not say that. </p>

<p>Please let kids makes that choice eherever they want to go. Just do not say a staement which none of us can prove as we are not currently enrolled. If 20% of harvard kids said it is a problem, then yes it maybe. But if only 5-10 kids express their opinion about it then these kids are not satisfied customer. ANd I am sure you will find similar views in other universities that a kid is not happy about something. Will you generalise the statement? I hope not.</p>

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<p>So many of the posters in this forum have a great deal of class, though not all. I’ll be one of them for a moment.</p>

<p>“I bet you that most of the brown kid (not all) who including ED to brown, will jump to Harvard if they are offered admission.”</p>

<p>I don’t understand this to be true, or an appropriate or tactful remark. Many would pick Harvard over Brown or Princeton perhaps, in the decision phase of admissions, many wouldn’t. However, I doubt most Brown students would opt to leave Brown if Harvard asked them to once they had become part of the Brown student body and understood the beauty of Brown or many other wonderful schools.</p>

<p>“This is postive development for Brown. IF I was the president of a University in the boondocks, i will try to pull same trick.”</p>

<p>In what way should your use of the term “trick” be taken (or “boondocks” for that matter; since when is Brown in the boondocks?)? It’s hard to view your remark in a positive light. I assume you mean an underhanded or envious device to undermine Harvard and boost Brown’s lowly reputation (?). This comment seems to lack a sort of grace and respect I would think to be appropriate to a school like Brown.</p>

<p>“This is the way to make headline and attract attention. Bravo to Brown.”</p>

<p>This comment is very provocative, unnecessary and incorrect on the face of it.</p>

<p>“Colleges do not change life that can provide $$$$$ , otherwise, all college professors will be Bill Gates. One has to work hard and use their talent to go ahead in real life. Bookish knowledge alone does not result in $$$$$$.”</p>

<p>I see, this comment does put your other comments in strong relief: “$$$$$”
Many students add other criteria to their college choice: fit, program, location, feel, etc. A brief look through some of the other threads in this forum would give you a sense of it. I’m not so sure Xanaos comments were that off the mark. The phrase is commonly bandied about on this forum, I'm not so sure that it has ever been more aptly applied.</p>

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<p>I think that we need to remember that not everyone wants the same experience from life ( or from college)
These boards are a great place to hear other's POV.
But I must add my $.02 since my post was pulled for some reason.
Not everyone wants to be Bill Gates. Not everyone wants to attend Harvard.
Not everyone wants to live in a plush suburb, not everyone wants to marry up
Call me crazy but I used to live about a mile south from Bill Gates when we first started a family, I didn't want to raise my kids in that "sort" of environment so we moved to the city- a neighborhood that I felt was more family friendly than Enitai/Medina/Beauxarts.
Not everyone wants the most rigorous college education, some want a good education with a great name. But so what? Just as long as you are clear about what you want, you don't have to apologize to anyone, including yourself</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Somehow I just do not like staement which tell people that H is an isntitution bad for undergrad. If that was the case more than 20,000 people will not apply.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You're missing the point - 20,000 people apply to Harvard so they can boast about the name. Certainly there are going to be some that genuinely want to go there, but ask a random Harvard applicant SPECIFICALLY the reason they want to attend - I'm willing to bet they won't be able to answer that. Harvard just simply does not focus on undergrad...they spend more resources on their grad schools because that's how they spread their name. And think about this...so your professor is a Nobel prize winner ('course there are such people at other schools too, but). What do you think he/she is more interested in doing, helping you learn integrals or publishing another groundbreaking paper?</p>

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<p>chinaman, </p>

<p>You may want to refuse to believe reality-- but it is widely accepted that, though Harvard has many significant strengths, undergrad focus is not one of them. A student probably gets much more focused attention, more face time with professors, fewer TAs, and more research opportunities at many other top LACs or small Univs. You probably viewed the dean's comments as an attack, because you thought they were false. They are not false. </p>

<p>Not every kid needs undergrad focus nor values it in the same way. Harvard kids have other priorities in mind. These might include the opportunities to take grad-level classes, the excitement provided by a very competitive and intellectual student body, the prestige & connections, specific departments, the size, location, etc, etc. I think Harvard kids are smart enough to pick Harvard for the actual benefits it offers to them while recognizing it can't have all benefits nor suit all people.</p>

<p>Harvard arguably has the best "name" and clearly name recognition and stature like this are not unearned... But it is naieve and simplistic to believe that because H or YPS are the most well-known they must be objectively better in every area.</p>

<p>Audis (or hybrids or pickup trucks) can be "better" than Cadillacs, depending on where you live, what you use your car for, and what your priorities are. Your position seems to be that everyone not driving a Cadillac covets one. You are wrong.</p>

<p>By the same token, not everyone values the strengths of HYPS more than the different strengths of a hundred other places. </p>

<p>Finally you say "Bookish knowledge does not provide $$$$$$." You are right. Happy engagement, excellence, and passion tend to bring success (whether holistic or monetary.) A Harvard degree is no guarantee of happy engagement. Following one's heart, knowing one's needs, and choosing a college based on that is the best beginning for a successful life.</p>

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<p>Okay folks to end this debate, I must say that I am tottaly offbase. To put it simply, I am wrong. I think it is my last article on this subject as we all have opinions. </p>

<p>You all are right harvard is a the biggest looser and a TTT university. Kids need not apply there as it will be waste of their time. Let us have a peace. Are you happy now? Have a nice day to you all. :)</p>

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<p>What does "undergrad focus" mean CONCRETELY? What actual, identifiable advantage does an undergraduate student have at a school with "undergraduate focus" that the undergraduate student CANNOT obtain at a school reputed to lack undergraduate focus? Please be specific in providing examples. </p>

<p>For my part, I treat my state university, yes, a big research university with lots of graduate and professional programs, as a worthy "safety" school for my son, based on his current interests. I went there as an undergraduate, and so did my wife, and we know how to get good educational value there. The schools I am thinking about as my son grows up as other schools to which he may desire to apply are mostly privately operated big research universities, Harvard being one of them. What I find particularly enticing about Harvard is its Math</a> 55 course, an outstanding example of a one-of-a-kind undergraduate course that is world renowned for its challenge and thoughtful curriculum. I acknowledge, because Ph.D. mathematicians at research universities have told me so, that one can get a good undergraduate math education at an LAC, which by definition is the kind of school without lots of graduate units on campus. But an LAC, the kind of school my dad and his parents went to, maybe (or maybe not) doesn't have any more "undergraduate focus" than some other school. What does "undergraduate focus" mean? I really would like to know what undergraduate focus provides to the learner as contrasted with what the learner can find at a school that supposedly lacks undergraduate focus.</p>

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<p>The academic world is full of Harvardians; someone leaving H for a job at B is unremarkable, and reflects ill on neither institution.</p>

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<p>Well not every student wants or needs this, but here are a few advantages of "undergrad focus." </p>

<p>The intimacy of a smaller LAC style school can be very helpful to feeling comfortable & "a part of things" for certain kids. Being engaged in many small (20-25 person) discussion/ seminar classes, where everyone is expected to contribute, and where you are expected to defend and support your opinions, will be a big advantage for some kids. Being taught by teaching-oriented professors (as opposed to publishing-oriented) is another; these profs, on the whole, may tease out a better academic result from kids due to their skill and their desire to engage with undergrads. Having priority access to participate in research projects-- & to your professors' time-- is another advantage. Getting to know professors in the ways mentioned above makes it likely a kid will find excellent mentors, as well as get insightful & personal recommendations to grad school.</p>

<p>It is not that these things can't happen in larger environments, it is that they are more readily available in undergrad-focused institutions. And of course, not every kid needs or wants these aspects; some kids <em>want</em> to fend for themselves in a larger environment-- they thrive on that challenge and the variety and depth offered by a large place. The large U approach thus offers quite different benefits socially, personally, and academically.</p>

<p>There is no one-size-fits-all.</p>

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<p>PS a really specific example would be an undergrad being able to co-author a research paper or co-develop a technology... maybe even co-own profits associated with that technology. This happens more frequently at a LAC or small undergrad-focused U because noone is "ahead of you in line" for that interesting research job. Then again, there may be fewer total research projects / less variety of research at a smaller place.</p>

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<p>TA: one measure might be the number of large (100+) lecture classes where a professor does the lecture, and TAs teach the discussion sections, grade the papers, etc. Another might be the number of name profs who rarely if ever teach undergrads. Another might be the lack of a serious advisory program. Another might be the general emphasis on research and publication rather than on teaching. Another might be an internal pecking order where the top professors teach only 1 or fewer graduate seminars a year, descending to the lowliest, who teach all frosh. Another might be that research opportunities, working with a professor, are available mostly to grad students rather than undergrads.</p>

<p>None of which implies that one is educationally better than the other. It's often said that a place such as Harvard is better set up for kids with a pretty clear idea of what they intend to study, where a LAC might be a better fit for a kid with no strong sense of academic direction.</p>