I think you fail to recognize many of the SAME kids win these DIFFERENT Olympiads. For example, take a look at the bios of USAPhO teams. These kids won multiple awards at different competitions. Besides, not all awards are viewed and weighted equally.
If that was the case, for sure colleges like MIT, Cal Tech et al would devalue the competitions, but they havenât. From the MIT admissions office blog (2017):
âISEF is a great competition that sends many alumni to MIT and is broadly aligned with the international strategy recently announced by MIT.â
âItâs a great opportunity to see some of the most promising future scientists and engineers ahead of time, like seeing a future Hall of Famer play at your local minor league affiliate.â
Thereâs the athletic comparison!
âThe skills and disposition necessary to excel in a math or science competitions may not closely correlate with the skills and disposition necessary to significantly contribute to the fields of math and science.â
Do you have non-anecdotal evidence for this, are you saying they donât contribute in college or after graduation? I agree on competitions, hackathons have lower, maybe much lower participation from girls.
âand would do so even if it was not particularly influential in college admission decisions.â
Thatâs not what you posted, you said something that would appeal to the collegeâs faculty and unless it was a random coincidence, the student would have to figure out what that is maybe for both interest and admissions, but admission would be one of the reasons. Anyway that person who does that kind of research, takes that kind of initiative, is also someone that these colleges would like. Agree there
"there are different expectations for different applicants.:
That is true and that would work against students who these colleges expect to participate in these ECS.
I wrote the following. It was meant to be an extreme and uncommon example to show how an Olympiad does not necessarily trump all. I did not intend it to suggest the applicant was targeting a specific research to align with the faculties interests at a particular desired college. I meant it as more the student pursued research in desired field of study, and separately the faculty took notice and were involved the academic review of the applicant for admissions â like the description of academic 1 kids in the Harvard study.
âMaybe the 800 SAT kid has other impressive out of classroom accomplishments, such as a lot of hands on experience in their planned field of study, related published research that interests the applying collegeâs faculty, and has overcome some extremely challenging situations.â
You keep misinterpreting what I said. I very specifically said that in my sample size of dozens of USAMO qualifiers, about 80% got into at least one HYPSM.
Another poster asked me to speculate what that could mean spots taken by award winners. I very specifically said that assuming that my observation holds true nationwide, this would result in 200+ spots nationwide. That is different from saying that I believe that there are 200+ spots taken, as there is a large error band around that extrapolated estimate.
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That sounds right. Most Ivies say they have a couple hundred spots reserved for extraordinary academic achievements, and these students certainly qualify as that. The regular class Val with perfect SAT scores may be capable of extraordinary achievements, but hasnât shown that yet.
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Regarding these two subgroups, adcoms at the elite institutions have very finely calibrated buckets. Our high performing high school in NJ administers the AMC tests, but no one is at the stratospheric levels. Each year in the past few years, we have had one girl getting admitted to MIT - with limited or no participation in these contests. No boys at all to MIT, or HYPS, in the past few years that my kids have been in the high school. A couple of the boys have reached AIME qualifier level but not beyond that. No HYPSM for them - but did get acceptances to other competitive universities. (I am a math prof and so local parents keep filling me in on these things, thinking I would be interested for my own kid - Iâm not, really - but hey I now have anecdotes to post here.) If a student is a white or Asian male from an affluent zip code from many of the over-represented states, itâs just very, very competitive.
I think males from areas where there is no access to such things would be judged differently. The universities are well aware how unequal our school system is and who is likely to have access and who is not.
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If they are not interested in competitions, why are they trying to participate in one of biggest competitions: applying to HYPSM?
Hmmm . . . I donât think so. You were referring to âHYPSMâ admissions, and that by your estimate about 260 (200+60) of the 7400 spots would go to students from the four competitions you followed. Here is some of what you wrote:
You also linked a a long list of competitions and awards, only a few of which you discussed.
@1NJParent, I donât think I âfail to recognize that many of the SAME kids win these DIFFERENT Olympiads.â Some overlap doesnât change my perspective at all, but thanks for the allcaps and the continued HYSPlaining.
It seems the various involved posters/parents are presenting a wide range of just how many students are impacted. However one adds it up it is magnitudes greater than a few, but beyond that Iâm not interested in arguing about the totals.
@theloniusmonk I think it is well established (by both of us) that . . .
- MIT and other AOâs at elite universities place great value in these competitions; and
- My views are out of vogue with the views of these AOâs.
So perhaps we should move on, or let it go?
@momprof9904 thanks for your perspective on this issue. I agree that AOs have âfinely calibrated buckets,â and I donât doubt they move outside of their competition-bucket according to their calibrations. It seems though that they put an awful lot of emphasis on these contests, though maybe Iâm just listening to the wrong parents. Regarding your one girl a year for a few years to MIT anecdote, did they happen to be athletes?
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You pick and choose your competition. You donât have to enter all competitions. Time is fleeting.
D is very good at math. I wasnât aware of the competitions until D took one during HS a couple years ago. Her math teacher suggested it. She did well, but wasnât interested in continuing on. It was a nerd-jock-cool crowd dynamic.
Sample of one.
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I do? I would like to compete at the Olympics, water polo please. 
And now seriouslyâŠ
Sure, if a student doesnât like it, they donât have to compete. My kids didnât want to and they didnât. But I would definitely not complain if somebody that DID and SUCCEEDED in them gets preference in the admissions.
Let me tell you all a story. A girl in my sonâs high school did very well in science fairs in engineering, junior year she qualified for ISEF and won some category awards, senior year she won a top 3 award at ISEF. But she couldnât handle AP physics C, almost dropped out of it. She got in MIT, Stanford, etc. and WL at Harvard. She eventually got in Harvard after she won the ISEF award. She claimed to major in some engineering first and then switched to political science because she couldnât handle the engineering courses.
Her father is a engineering mechanics Ph.D. We suspect she got a big help.
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Believe it or not, not everyone views the college search as a competition. Some students might apply to Harvard (for example) not because it is âHarvardâ but because they view it as a place where they can best further their education.
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I donât know who sees what as competition, but college applications to these colleges (as well as any others) ARE competitions and that is A FACT.
And nobody can deny facts.
You try to demonstrate your qualifications, the judges deliberate, the winners win, the losers lose. Competition it is.
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Itâs never too late.
Iâm still entering competitions, but not water polo though. You can certainly do it.
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No, I donât want to do all the work to qualify, I canât even swim. I just want to compete directly in the Olympics. I think Iâll be exceptional.
HYPO. Hard Work Pays Off. 
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I can absolutely believe it. My kids participated in science fair and I judged all the way to ISEF (thankfully they didnât compete in the category where my expertise is), and I have seen many examples like that. Sometimes it is easy to catch them, sometimes it is not.
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Hmmm . . . this post is a pretty good example of why viewing education as a competition might be considered as corrosive, counterproductive, and perhaps even poisonous. I sure hope that such a life view isnât prevalent among our scientists and mathematicians.
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