Uh, I don’t think so. Most engineering and nursing schools that I know realize that they have lock-step program with class sizes capped, so they limit the admissions to the program in the first place.
Actually, most will drop out of pre-health after getting C’s Gen Chem and Calc 1.
…but the broader point is that pre-pharm like premed (and pre-dent) can major in anything; many major in English or History. And, how many publics actually consider intended major to the College of Arts/Letters & Sciences?
But note, even the top privates have capped classes. Only Harvard has the money to open another section/class with just one student, bcos the seminar in the next classroom is capped at 15.
Schools in this situation put admission gates in front of majors that are enrolled to capacity, so that upper level courses are not over-enrolled. Additional lower-level sections for those aspiring to the majors are easier to add with TAs or adjuncts, unless the school is a LAC that tries to have regular faculty teach every course (but then it has to choose between increasing class sizes or shutting some students out of them).
ucbalumnus and bluebayou, you certainly do not have to believe me, but I am senior faculty at a research university (currently my third research university position) and an officer in regional and national professional organizations. I hear what happens on many campuses. I know very well how universities should manage, but some have trouble moving theory into practice. For decades it has been normal to admitting 2 or 4 times the freshmen aspirants for the sciences. It was not normal to admit 8X. To get into majors, such as nursing, there once were GPA requirements. Now there are complicated application procedures as well because there are too many 4.0 students wanting into nursing.
The point of this thread, and a number of others currently running, is that things are changing very rapidly in higher education. Just to take up one problem: University X needs more chemistry classes due to the stem boom. TAs are a very expensive way to offer classes (their tuition, benefits, and salaries are more than the salary of part-timers). On the other hand, there aren’t too many great chemist-teachers running around who want to teach part-time. How to solve the problem? Bigger sections? Winter and summer sessions? Increase faculty course load? Have hierarchies of who can get into the class (first juniors, then sophomores, then freshmen?)? Never turn away full pay students, but students can fall behind when registrations prioritize honors students, upper clansmen, etc.
The situation is more complex than you acknowledge.
Right. And that has nothing to do with grad rates, since those students who are accepted can readily obtain their classes.
Labs are really expensive, too.
Without outing your University/college, can you provide some hard stats to show that xx students are blocked from, say, Frosh Chem, due to space/staff considerations?
Universities are very quiet about registration problems, and it is hard to document who didn’t get in. Students see the class is full and move on to another course, perhaps a gen ed requirement. There is no trace of their frustration. I suspect administrators make sure that freshmen get their courses. I’ve heard nothing implying otherwise. The problem arises later at the bottleneck to the desirable (STEM) majors, when no one shifts to psychology, anthropology, or communication.
If people knew that some universities were accepting for high SATs without sufficient regard for disciplinary pathways, all hell would break loose. Enough is going on at my campus that, when she applies, I would want my younger child admitted to a college that admits directly to the major.
One more point: if you are the nursing, CS, whatever student who doesn’t get into the major, then you have to move to a different school or reinvent yourself, either of which influences graduation rates, cost of attendance, etc.
Yes, this is a valid point for students considering schools where there is a high GPA requirement or competitive admission process to enter the desired major, and the student is not directly admitted to the major as a frosh. Of course, what is a popular (impacted) major can vary from one school to another.
But that is different from the probably-very-overstated claim that students already in majors cannot get the classes they need to graduate on time.
My university has a lot of enrollment problems. The computer science department has overenrolled in the past few years. Now standards for internally switching to CS have become high (and the department still has high attrition). Getting into upper-level major classes is getting harder for non-seniors. Faculty hiring has been slow, with much of it filled by temporary faculty. Our grad students unionized partially due to the fact that their teaching responsibilities were going to be doubled without a pay increase.
I have no doubt these problems are worse at many other universities.
@SaintSaens, that seems to be happening at many CS departments. But disregarding those who can not get in to CS, are CS majors having to delay graduation because of the crush?
Sure, but a LOT of private schools have the same issue, at least when it comes to specialized programs like nursing or business or engineering. Kinda hard to transfer into Wharton from Penn A&S. Will Penn’s nursing program take anyone and everyone interested from its liberal arts side? Obviously, not.
btw: If a Department Chair is turning away students every semester, why wouldn’t s/he be badgering the Admin for more resources. Sure, its a zero sum game, but the Dept Chair would have to have some hard data to support his/her case.
Bluebayou, do you work at a university? Your comments seem out of touch with what is going on.
Obviously department chairs ask for more resources, but if the resources aren't there, then no one can provide them. 2. Obviously transferring into a major is different than being admitted with to the major or the major track. Penn A and S to nursing is not a parallel case to admitting a student who is following the nursing /track from the start. 3. My older goes to a "Real Ivy." I don't see any problem with getting her major at HYP. Majors may be an issue at Cornell, but where else?
Of the “Real Ivies”, Columbia, Cornell, and Penn have limitations on internal transfers to some majors or divisions, and presumably differing levels of frosh admission selectivity based on majors or divisions.
Harvard, Yale, and Princeton are among the very wealthy schools which can maintain sufficient extra capacity in all majors and on the campus as a whole to allow declaration or changing major without any barriers other than perhaps remaining in good academic standing and having taken the prerequisites that will result in on-time graduation in the major.
Then “obviously” the dept chair should have some hard facts to prove his/her case. I was asking for those. I’d be particularly interested in new mass demand for organic chem.
Your argument continues to conflate the two bcos you keep mentioning nursing, which one applies into originally, not to transfer into.
Most nursing programs have much less capacity than there is demand for the seats. If a program is designed to be direct entry from college, then there is typically little capacity for transfers. That capacity is limited by clinical spots and a shortage of qualified nursing educators. Also, nursing has a low student to teacher ratio in the last 2 years, so it is an expensive program to run.
For engineering transfers, many colleges want to make sure you can handle the work. For instance, they want to see your math scores and grades before accepting a transfer.
A number of colleges have selective business programs. For example, at one university it is much more difficult to be accepted into the business school from high school. At that university, it is almost impossible to transfer into it while an enrolled student in another major. At some colleges, it is not only a matter of business school capacity, but it is an intentional policy to make that an elite program.
