The trouble with public colleges

Parent Cafe
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<p>Record applications. Soaring tuition. Tighter budgets. State U. may no longer be as great a deal or as easy a backup as it once was. Parents and kids, time to rethink your strategy.
By Pat Regnier, Money Magazine assistant managing editor
May 10, 2009: 8:09 AM ET</p>

<p>(Money Magazine) -- At the 50,000-student University of Florida, only 50 or so undergrads major in geology. It's not exactly an easy subject.</p>

<p>But Michael Perfit, the department's chairman, says that thousands of UF's liberal arts undergrads fulfill their science requirement with geology - and they do a lot more than sort rocks. Students learn about the patterns of the oceans, groundwater systems, and long-term changes in the earth's atmosphere. Pretty key things in this era of climate change, especially in a coastal wetlands state like Florida.</p>

<p>But Perfit's department may soon be unable to offer so many courses to non-majors. UF fears severe state budget cuts in May and has warned that it may have to lay off half the geology faculty.</p>

<p>The religion department is on the block for big cuts too. Ditto for lots of little things, like library journal subscriptions and a student art gallery. Peter Laumann, a UF senior active in a student group protesting the cuts, says some of his instructors have asked students to stop submitting papers by e-mail. That way the university doesn't spend money printing them for grading.</p>

<p>Public</a> colleges and state universities are cash strapped - June 1, 2009</p>

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<p>There is a good deal of waste in public universities and in many cases, students need 5 years to graduate since their courses are not available when they need them.</p>

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<p>^^^But even if it takes 5 years to graduate from a public college (at $20k/year in-state), it’s cheaper than 4 years of private college at $45k/year. And those are pretty standard prices at LACs in the northeast.</p>

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<p>Unless the 4-year grad gets a job for the year following graduation and earns, say $40,000 plus. So the private school kid has paid about $180,000 - 40,000 = $$140k vs. 5 years at public = $100k. So, if privates offer $10,000 FinAid/year it comes out equal. More or less.</p>

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<p>That was a useful article. I originally thought that it would be somewhat sensationalistic but it was rather practical.</p>

<p>There is no free lunch at the moment and everyone is trying to squeeze anyone that they can for cash. Of course many of us don’t like being squeezed but that’s life. Hopefully we’ll be done before things deteriorate too badly.</p>

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<p>Try telling that to people who feel they got the scores and so the state owes them tuition. (aka Californians for one)</p>

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<p>It is painful to watch states descend into the pits of revenue hell - I’m watching that with the state where my son is attending. Income taxes have been down and down and down - no surprises - when jobs go away, state income taxes decline. I don’t have a solution but I expect a bailout for states later this year. In the meantime, states are in the squeezing game. Parents will have to deal with their kids not getting slots at their state university. This article is a wake-up call.</p>

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<p>I agree that this is one aspect that isn’t figured in when comparing 5 years at a public vs. 4 years at a private–the opportunity cost of a working salary for that extra year.</p>

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<p>A cheap, sensationalistic, and profoundly misleading article. It doesn’t recognize the foundational fact that not all public universities are cut out of the same cloth. Some states are experiencing deep fiscal problems, others less so. Some state universities are heavily dependent on legislative appropriations to support their operating budgets, others less so. Some state universities are basically creatures of the state legislature, others have independent status recognized in their state constitutions, along with considerable autonomy to chart their own course. Some have enormous endowments, others virtually none. Some have extremely large research enterprises that produce a substantial fraction of their total budget in outside grants; others, little or none. Some have low graduation rates, others have high graduation rates that rival the best privates. The simplistic, broad-brush treatment this article gives does a deep disservice to its readers, and does more to ■■■■■■ our understanding than to advance it.</p>

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<p>I am really tired of reading this myth about public education. I had no problem graduating in 4 years from a UC – I actually graduate early – and most of the kids I see who go to public universities graduate on time. When they don’t, its often because they have taken time off during the course of the 4 years, or attended less than full time for some semesters – often for financial reasons. (My son worked half time his junior year with a full course load, but its hard to juggle work and school - my son was able to do that because he had a flexible schedule and could set his own hours). </p>

<p>If my son had stayed in the private college where he started it would have taken him MORE than 4 years to graduate, because he messed up in some classes and would have had to either attend an extra semester or year, or else make up the course work taking summer classes at another university. When he transferred to a public college, it was his 3rd year of college, but he only had sophomore standing in terms of transferable credit – but he graduated with 2 more years of work. </p>

<p>There are some students, some majors, and some schools where the students run into scheduling difficulties to — but it certainly is NOT a characteristic of all public colleges. My son actually did some research into “FTE” hours taken at his public college – in California, CSU funding is dependent on that number, which is the “full time equivalent” and reflects how many students are taking at least 15 credit hours per semester. He was working with a group of students trying to fight budget cuts and faculty layoffs, and they found that one problem was that many students were enrolled for less than full time each semester. Most students did not realize that when they signed up for the minimum coarse load of 12 units that the CSU lost funds – and it was very typical that students would be taking 14 units. So my son worked with an effort to get students to pledge to enroll in at least 15 units for the coming semesters.</p>

<p>It is easy to see that if a student takes the bare minimum 12 units per semester they might find themselves coming up short in the end, but at least in California it costs the same to take 12 units or to take 18. For the most part, I don’t think you would find all that many students who regularly a heavy course load running into difficulty graduating on time – and among those that have a problem, many are the result of changed majors or other issues that are attributable to poor planning on the part of the student. </p>

<p>Obviously my son was falling behind at his private school because of lack of discipline and poor study habits – and he leapt ahead at his public college because he had matured, was paying his own way, and wanted to maximize his college experience. </p>

<p>I actually don’t know of any students who attended public colleges *full time<a href=“15-18%20credits%20per%20semester”>/i</a> and who stuck with one major (and didn’t flunk any courses along the way) who had problems graduating on schedule. I’m sure that some exist – but I think if you looked at the educational histories of the vast majority of kids who need more time to graduate that you would find other factors at work. I also do remember kids at my college who didn’t graduate on time and seemed to stay on in school forever… but they were idlers who enjoyed being students and were taking the long-way round to degrees.</p>

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<p>S1 and his roommates all graduated this past weekend fr. our big state u. after four years. One is going to grad sch. The other two have jobs.</p>

<p>Neighbor’s kid at small private just finished soph. year and so far has only taken two or three core courses because her major (theater) courses are only offered every couple of years on a rolling basis. So she has spent the first two years grabbing whatever is available for fear that she might get to senior year and be missing one that’s not offered that year.<br>
There are problems and success stories at every school.</p>

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<p>agree with bclinktonk…the funding situation for public universities varies significantly…as does the quality. It’s also true that there may be more variability in the student population.
In my experience, those who take five years to graduate are either lacking in motivation or have changed their majors. Top kids who go to publics often enter with significant AP credits…some of my son’s friends have graduated in THREE years or started graduate work early.<br>
One key point the article does make is that some of the flagships are getting more difficult to get into. It’s wise for students and parents to do some research on admissions standards, class sizes and graduation rates - perhaps even as early as freshman year of high school. And for top kids, the honors programs can make a big difference, with scholarships, priority registration, early access to graduate programs and more.</p>

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<p>Re: 4-year graduations rates, only a handful of public colleges and universities come within ten percentage points of the 90% + rates of top private schools. Most publics graduate less than half the average freshman class four years later. There are many reasons for this, ranging from academically unprepared students (many of whom drop out before the first year is over), family finances, inability to register for required classes, homesickness and all the other reasons that cause students to leave their college permanently or for a period of time before graduating.</p>

<p>The best grad rates among the publics, not surprisingly, are found among the flagships and “public honors colleges” that are usually found at the top of the best public colleges list: UVA, William & Mary, St. Mary’s of Maryland, Michigan, North Carolina and The College of New Jersey.</p>

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<p>At the flagship university our D applied to, we were told that drop-out are in big part due to the fact that college students want to maintain a “young professional” lifestyle (car, clothes, spending money), and look for work outside campus. Once in the general population, they make friends, get promoted, request more hours for more money, cut their courses load, and eventually drop out.</p>

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<p>While there will always be individual anecdotes to refute broad trends, I find that the article makes a fair presentation of the broad trends. There are differences among colleges , most of which I attribute to institutional resouces (ability to enroll students in classes that they need, availability of financial aid, etc.) and student quality (better students tend to persist at a statistically higher rate). With some editorial addition, here are the latest 4-year Graduation Rates as taken from USNWR online. </p>

<p>4-year Graduation Rate , National University</p>

<p>OUTSTANDING </p>

<p>90% , Notre Dame
90% , Georgetown
89% , Princeton
88% , Harvard
88% , Boston Coll
87% , Yale
87% , U Penn
87% , Dartmouth
86% , Columbia
86% , Duke
86% , Northwestern
85% , Vanderbilt
85% , Brandeis</p>

<p>VERY GOOD </p>

<p>84% , U Chicago
84% , Cornell
84% , Johns Hopkins
84% , Brown
84% , U Virginia
84% , Tufts
84% , W&M
83% , MIT
83% , Wash U
82% , Caltech
82% , Emory
80% , Stanford
79% , Wake Forest
78% , Rice
78% , NYU</p>

<p>RAISES SOME QUESTIONS </p>

<p>72% , Lehigh
71% , U North Carolina
70% , Carnegie Mellon
70% , U Michigan
70% , U Rochester
66% , UCLA
66% , USC
66% , Rensselaer
66% , Tulane
64% , UC Santa Barbara
63% , U Illinois
61% , UC Berkeley</p>

<p>CONCERNING </p>

<p>59% , Case Western
58% , Penn State
56% , UCSD
53% , U Florida
51% , UC Irvine
48% , U Washington
48% , Yeshiva
47% , U Wisconsin
47% , U Texas</p>

<p>BAD </p>

<p>43% , UC Davis
33% , Georgia Tech</p>

<p>4-year Graduation Rate , LAC</p>

<p>OUTSTANDING </p>

<p>91% , Williams
91% , Swarthmore
91% , Carleton
91% , Davidson
88% , Vassar
87% , W&L
86% , Middlebury
86% , Pomona
86% , Haverford
85% , Wellesley
85% , Claremont McK
85% , Colgate</p>

<p>VERY GOOD </p>

<p>84% , Amherst
84% , Wesleyan
84% , Colby
83% , Bowdoin
83% , Smith
83% , Hamilton
83% , Bates
83% , Macalester
82% , US Naval Acad
81% , Grinnell
80% , Bryn Mawr
77% , Harvey Mudd</p>

<p>RAISES SOME QUESTIONS </p>

<p>66% , Oberlin</p>

<p>na , US Military Acad</p>

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<p>I think there are too many variables (state, major, flagship or directional, etc.) to make a one-size-fits-all assessment of the situation. </p>

<p>I know for us, we’ll merely be going through the motions of a University of Maryland at College Park application. Why? Because we heard no good news from the Psych dept chair when we made our visit in Feb.<br>

  • Professors retiring
  • No new-hires due to budget cuts; vacancies to be filled by TAs
  • Vast majority of classes below 300-level have 100+ students (psych 101 has 600 kids per class)
  • With fewer profs, that means fewer sections, delayed graduation
  • Undergrads rarely get research opps.<br>
  • UM Psych Grad school expects to see UG research experience (umm, OK)</p>

<p>Based on all that, UMCP has to stay on the list “just in case.” And that’s assuming Son is accepted, which is not a given these days. For us, we have to look beyond the flagship for an instate app. So we’re adding St. Mary’s and Salisbury along with several regional privates.</p>

<p>Maybe the sitch isn’t so grim for Spanish/History/Geography/etc majors at UMCP. And good for them. But, like I said, it’s not a OSFA situation.</p>

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<p>Our son is an independent learner and usually covers about 90% of the course material before the course even begins. What’s helpful in courses is additional materials outside the text, the labs and the insights of the professor. Students can learn in lecture halls with hundreds of students or where you have a TA that does most of the teaching or in otherwise hostile environments - but it is harder and more of the responsibility is on the student to do the learning. State schools can be an environment where you throw the kid in the water to teach them to swim.</p>

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<p>Doug,</p>

<p>One of my friends sons went to UM - CP. He is an excellent student, and first year OK. Then no housing. She is p***ed at how it was handled. He is transfering to Fordham and will live at home.</p>

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<p>Hawkette – You missed a couple LACs with “Outstanding” grad rates, including Holy Cross (92%) and Lafayette (85%). I realize you did some editing and I’m sure I missed some others.</p>

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<p>Again, those 4-year graduation rate statistics don’t tell you what happened to the student. Any time a student transfers to another college – then they will never graduate from the 1st college and bring down the numbers. Public colleges tend to be much more flexible about students taking time off and returning, and transfers from one campus to another within a state tend to be pretty easy. Plus, as I noted before, many students drop to a part-time schedule because of work, or take off a semester here and there to earn money. </p>

<p>Its just not comparable. The public colleges are full of students who are working and paying their own way through school. Yes there are also some whose parents are supporting them… but I’ll bet the majority are there without parental support. They either qualify for enough financial aid so that only nominal parental support is needed, or the parents expect them to fend for themselves. </p>

<p>Things may have changed over the years, but that certainly was my experience when I went to a public U. And I know that by the time my son arrived at a private U. as a transfer, that was the situation he was in. </p>

<p>Private colleges students by comparison are pampered. Their parents are paying their way or else they have generous scholarships, so it is in their interest to stay in school.</p>

<p>I think if you simply correlated that 4 year graduation rate with percentage of Pell grant recipients at each school you’d see a pretty clear indication of the role that finances play. It is NOT necessarily in the interest of a student paying their own way to attend continuously, especially if they are relying heavily on student loans. It is in their interest to work and earn money when they can – and taking off quarters or semesters here and there is a good way to get a reasonable infusion of cash into the equation.</p>