<p>All the passion in the world can't make up for physiology. We're not all equal, guys.</p>
<p>While you are right UCLAri, I think I get what Deluxe is trying to say. In terms of instutuionalized education (Kindergarten-Phd) it is not hard enough for anyone not to be able to do with some skill (As and Bs) with preparation, dedication, and forethought.</p>
<p>No matter how smart you guys think you are if you only took up to geometry in high school I highly doubt you would be able to grasp the concepts being taught if you were thrown into a multivariable calculus class in any college. You have been prepared through your life to achieve what you accomplish today. </p>
<p>In order for you to be able to do what you do today you also had to have dedication. I highly doubt you would be able to effectively do high level calculus, if in high school you just listened to the teacher and then went home and sat on your ass and never did or turned in a single assigned homework or projects. You might do okay on the tests but nowhere near as well as you would of done if you would of done the extra studying and/or homework. </p>
<p>While its obvious that people are naturally better at things than others are. In a school setting that natural ability is is not nearly as impactful as the person with preparation, dedication, and forethought. I don't think that the kids in inner city detroit are any less intelligent than the kids in Silicon Valley, its just that the kids in Silicon Valley had a lot more preparation, a hell of a lot more dedication in their schoolwork, and had a lot more forethought.</p>
<p>I feel natural ability is what separates the Einsteins and Newtons from the regular Physicists with a Phd. While Einstein, Newton, and people with Phds from Harvard in Physics are very good at what they do, and accomplished a lot more in the areas in Physics than 99% of the population does, there natural ability is what separates their accomplishments. Einstein and Newton were able to grasp and understand complicated subjects faster and more fully than others because of their natural ability. All of them prepared and dedicated their life to something, but they reached different levels.</p>
<p>Natural ability has nothing do with whether a person understands high school physics or not. In an academic setting there are WAY too many factors to just say someone can't understand something because they don't have the natural ability at it, it all starts when were young and your mother made you read a book while the other kids were playing, or your mom made you do a couple extra math problems while the other kids moms just told them to do their homework, or even your mom preparing at least one healthy meal a day for the family, while other kids just ate junk food or their parents just said raid the fridge. Someone that doesn't understand something in a basic academic setting hasn't put in the right amount of time or had the previous preparation for them to understand it.</p>
<p>I didn't articulate my thoughts as well as I would have liked to, due to it being late and me being extremely tired but I hope you got the gist of what I was trying to convey.</p>
<p>^ I agree with you, bro.</p>
<p>You guys should watch Gattaca. That movie is so relevant to our discussion.</p>
<p>Oh man, definitely. A friend of mine had a lab partner in intro chem who was just dumb as a brick no matter how hard she tried, no matter how many times she read the lab, no matter how many people tried to explain the concepts. She just couldn't do things competently, and ended up almost setting the lab on fire a few times, burned a hole in my friend's pants (and almost her leg!) with HCl, and only passed on others' good graces (and the prof's never wanting her to be in the lab again). She had to retake all of her intro sciences at least once, and barely passed some of them on the second try. She thinks she's going to get a PhD in marine biology!</p>
<p>Sometimes, an ambition is just wishful thinking. Hard work can only compensate so much.</p>
<p>People definitely have limits, and I have seen people occasionally take on more than what they should. </p>
<p>I think some people go through life over-estimating themselves in various ways, not just academically. For example, the leader for my brother's 4-H group seems to think he is a great public speaker. Time and again, he is a public failure. My neighbors think they do an awesome job hanging up their Christmas lights every year, but it looks like a Christmas nightmare. Last semester, I had a teacher who thought she grasped what she was teaching even though she had very limited formal instruction in the topic. She didn't seem to understand how flawed her lectures were. I could think of more examples . . .</p>
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Sometimes, an ambition is just wishful thinking. Hard work can only compensate so much.
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<p>Thats when you have to work smarter, and analyzing how to work smarter is a talent, but talents are things that you can develop. Like you said your friend who was as dumb as a brick no matter how hard she tried, maybe she wasn't trying hard in the right direction, maybe she couldn't go further because of the way she learned her things earlier inhibited her.</p>
<p>And again with Kollegkid's example of the 4-H guy who thinks he is a great public speaker. I think drawing these examples is flawed because you do not know if he trained the right way(not just if he trained hard enough). There isn't another person who has "innate abilities" that have been measured to be greater than this guys AND who has gone to the EXACT same experiences as him.</p>
<p>I doubt that anyone has maxed out their physiological "innate" abilities. And I would doubt that the majority of successful people are sp because of their "innate" ability. </p>
<p>There is also the element of timing: having your experiences and training at the right time in conjunction with the rest of society. I think we can all agree that what we can achieve today has atleast some connection with society(I think its a rather large interdependence). I don't think you'd be able to separate even the extreme examples(say, Einstein or Newton) from this.</p>
<p>
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I feel natural ability is what separates the Einsteins and Newtons from the regular Physicists with a Phd. While Einstein, Newton, and people with Phds from Harvard in Physics are very good at what they do, and accomplished a lot more in the areas in Physics than 99% of the population does, there natural ability is what separates their accomplishments.
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<p>Obviously this discussion has a lot to do with the nature vs. nurture idea. I think we can all agree that both have some degree of influence. But I think that to say that even extreme examples such as Einstein, Newton, Mozart, and whatnot, have their success rooted in nature or their "innate" ability is flawed because there is simply no way(as of yet) to compare the level of their "innate" ability and their exposure and environment with someone else of the same exact exposure and environment.</p>
<p>So I think whats more important now is whether you believe that this "innate" ability and your predisposition dictates the cap of your success or that your hard work and direction and what you expose YOURSELF to can compensate for this.</p>
<p>and as for the original title topic of someone's ambitions and their level of competence, of course there are many people whose ambitions exceed their level of competence and keep on working "hard" and bang their heads against the wall, maybe they DO need to reevaluate themselves----though I think an effective reevaluation is not one where you put a cap over yourself and your abilities, but one where you analyze the "hard" work that you are doing and what you have not done(I think I can confidently say that no one has tried every method in doing their "hard" work), and whats working and whats not.</p>
<p>I don't think the girls that watch Grey's Anatomy and then say "lol i wanna b a docter lol" have ambition. That is just a childish desire they will never fulfill.</p>
<p>so.....</p>
<p>don't you guys think my 2 posts above were fantastic or what, eh? ;-D</p>
<p>They were the most enlightening posts I've ever read; upon finishing the last word, I saw a bright flash of light and had an epiphany. Your posts evoked something, brought about a catharsis even!</p>
<p>good analysis xasert, i'm too sleep deprived to respond further</p>
<p>My post was better. No one can come with a coherent counterargument to it.</p>
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They were the most enlightening posts I've ever read; upon finishing the last word, I saw a bright flash of light and had an epiphany. Your posts evoked something, brought about a catharsis even!
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<p>lol; just doin my job.</p>