If FA aid is an issue, we were told it was unlikely any would be available for that year at Penn, regardless of how much aid you qualified for at Haverford.
Can you investigate how many seniors in the program donât make it to Penn? Is the program considered onerous? weed out? Do they try to encourage students to pursue it and make it through, or actively discourage them? Are the requirements difficult to fulfill within the parameters of the school?
I donât think itâs possible to do D1 sports and engineering at Penn State. I donât know the situation at JHU but I know that JHU is very competitive.
To @LucieTheLakieââs point, I believe no money is available for year 5 at Penn.
Last year we were looking for an undergrad Engineering / LAC experience. In the end, there are only a handful of Liberal Arts schools with accredited engineering degrees. There are also a lot of schools that have 3/2 and 4/1 programs. Bowdoin has an agreement with Dartmouth which is similar to the Haverford / Penn (two BS degreesâŠthe Penn Masters is rare). We met with both sides of that program, and it just seemed like a lot of commitments, deadlines, and worrying. Since you have to apply to all of them, the pressure of getting into college never seemed to go away.
Sports at D3 are a great outlet, and encourage the type of relationship opportunity (with âlike mindedâ people) you mentioned, but itâs less of a priority. It will take ~3 hours a day in season, versus a D1 sport which could take an hour or two more. The travel and number of matches / games is less at D3 as well. If youâre being recruited for a D1, and if that can provide some moneyâŠdifferent story. I was a scholarship D1 athlete, and while I enjoyed participating, when I think back to college those memories arenât the ones that come to mind first.
If youâre really looking for engineering in a liberal arts school, I believe we found 10 or 11 with ABET accredited degrees. Lafayette is a great campus with a good engineering program. Bucknell, Lehigh, Villanova, Swarthmore, etcâŠ
Hereâs a conversation elsewhere on engineering in LACâs⊠http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/957914-liberal-arts-colleges-with-engineering-programs.html
Normally, I would recommend Haverford over Lafayette. But for engineering, Iâd go with Lafayette. The 4 + 1 program with Penn sounds intriguing, but may prove too cumbersome and expensive. Lafayette and Lehigh indeed are similar as regards their solid reputation for engineering in the east.
Unless Notre Dame offered a better financial package, I donât see any practical reason to choose it over Lafayette. I do know engineers who graduated from Notre Dame and did well; I personally think youâd also do well with a Lafayette engineering degree, and especially so if you choose to remain on the east coast. If you wanted to work in the midwest after college and ND came through to meet your needs, then Iâd give that the advantage. ND has excellent brand appeal in many places, but if there were a slight engineering boost, Iâd wager that may be most appreciable in the Chicago metro area, etc. And there may be practicing engineers here that would say there is really no appreciable benefit. In that case, I would defer to their experience.
epeemom - has he gotten in to either yeat?
collegelife - Arent you going to apply to both? and if you are a junior keep researching and visiting and you still have time
and yes - check out Bucknell/Lehigh too
And post this question in the engineering majors forum, where youâll likely get some valuable feedback as well: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/engineering-majors/
swampdraggin - Not yet, he applied RD to both.
I studied engineering at Princeton and went to law school. Son is considering Haverford now. I would not recommend Haverford as any kind of engineering option. It is a small Quaker oriented LAC. The culture of an engineering school of any kind is not like that at all. You would have to adjust socially as well as academically, and with kids in engineering as the competitors you might regret it. I would choose a university with a four year engineering program because youâll need friends in the classes. I would only recommend a Cal Tech two year for the strangest sort of intensely motivated person if at all. Lafayette, Lehigh those are good places.
Thank you, CluelessDad313. I did not consider the role peers play in the competitive environment.
The following should be mentioned as plusses for Haverford, given your situation:
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Haverford is an academic powerhouse, on a par with any school.
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Haverford is extremely strong in the Sciences. Famously so. It can prepare you well for grad school.
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If youâre still exploring career options at this stage, there is an engineering program at Swarthmore where you could take classes as a Haverford student.
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Haverford may offer very generous financial aid (depending on your income).
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Haverford student-athletes are serious about academics, but the school has some legendary coaches and teams in some sports. A lot of very serious students are also successful athletes (D3) there.
badpundit, the only plus I see on your list for Haverford as a supportive engineering program that satisfies the OPâs criteria, is (possibly) #4. And even that would have to be very generous aid, to offset its other limitations for a career in engineering.
Nobody disputes Haverfordâs academic excellence and distinguished history. I personally have great respect for Haverford and Swarthmore. But frankly, your post comes off more as one of many chest-thumping missives for a given school on this board, when its strengths do not really address the prospective familiesâ needs. At least re-read upthread before the inevitable counter-post.
On Cal Tech: It appears that the 3-2 Cal Tech option would allow financial aid for the two years ( see http://www.admissions.caltech.edu/content/faq-32-applicants ) . There are also 13 partner schools which participate, and that means that you might be starting up with a bunch of others â so youâd be able to meet some natural potential friends in that incoming group. A major difficult, however, is that you apply during your junior year at Haverford. So you might not get in. If you donât get in, then you can be stuck at an LAC without an engineering option.
If youâre serious about engineering and want two undergraduate degrees, one thing you could also check out are 3-2 programs at the same school wherein you get into the program on applying as a freshman. This could be more accommodating to your varsity sport, including the option of redshirting (formal type of sit-out with practice rigor and without killing year of eligibility) your freshman year.
All in all however, if you want to play varsity sport for 4 years I think youâll find it easiest at an engineering school like Princeton, Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell, Penn. It is not the easiest thing to do but many students do it. And for most students it is a killer only for one season, reduced practices etc. in others. So youâll have other seasons to take those exceptionally harder courses.
I also would not recommend Haverford for any kind of engineering option. It is a great school and stepping stone for grad schools, where Haverford is well known and respected, but not for an engineering degree. I know this because my son is a junior engineering major there now, and trust me the Penn 4 + 1 is not great, and does not have any job placement advantage over a four year engineering degree from a college with a known engineering program. It is quite difficult to take engineering classes at Swarthmore while a Haverford student. My son chose Haverford over some other great engineering programs, because he is not a âpartierâ and thought Haverford would not be a big drinking school.On the contrary, he says some weekends he feels like the only sober student there. Haverford does not have any rules about underage drinking and students take full advantage of it. Looking back, had he gone to one of the better engineering schools that offered him merit money (Haverford only has need based aid, which we do not qualify for), my son would have graduated with a great engineering degree and $100K in his pocket (we offer both of our sons any merit money they receive back when they graduate), to put a down payment on home, start career, etc. My wife and I and my younger son, a HS sophmore, have learned a lot since my oldest made his college choice, as we start this journey again. Lafayette, Lehigh, Stevens are great engineering programs in NJ with excellent job placement.
I mean Stevens in NJ, not all of them.
@son2hereagain . My son loves Haverford for the same reasons that yours was attracted to it. Iâm not sure my guy will stick with Engineering but he thinks he will. Heâs also applied to Lafayette and Stevens. It will be hard for him to convince us to spend $64,000 a year for a Haverford degree if heâs going into it knowing that he wants an engineering degree. (I can see him changing to math, but who knows).
He almost didnât apply to Lafayette because heâs not into drinking/partying. We have a relative there who applied because she wanted a place with lots of school spirit and Greek life. The two kids are polar opposites. DS felt that it Lafayette was the right fit for her then it couldnât possibly be the right fit for him. Finally, he had his alumni interview last night. DS mentioned that at this point he is not interested in partying and drinking. The alum was president of his fraternity and said he partied a fair amount while at Lafayette, though there are options for those who donât want to.
Epeemom - you now mention that he applied to Stevens also -
any other schools in the mix? -
and also he hasnât gotten into any of them - so the argument might be moot
My son liked Haverford too (didnt like Swarthmore) but chose not to apply because there didnât seem to be an engineering department at Haverford. In engineering/architecture programs you really heavily on your peers and professors and the idea of going to a different college for engineering seemed to tangental
collegelife seems to have dissappeared from this thread
curious if he/she has applied or is still looking
there are two overlapped threads in here
Carleton has an interesting perspective on the 3-2 program there:
https://apps.carleton.edu/curricular/physics/for_students/department_links/engineering/questions/
50-60 kids on an engineering email list; eventually only 0-3 apply. And it gives some reasons.
In sum, there is a lot of rigidity built in to a 3-2 program, and it turns out that rigidity is for very few people. With a 3-2 program and a varsity sport, youâre putting three types of corsets on your bodice â then pulling them all tight. Needless to say, everything must work. Ok if you like the straightjacket approach. Few do.
Thank you for all of your considerations. My knee jerk reaction is that I could turn my college experience into a chapter straight out of Danteâs Inferno. While Haverford is an undoubtedly an exceptional school, I am not certain that I will perform exceptionally well enough to offset the uncertainty of gaining the necessary admission in my junior year in college. Given the costs of college, I canât afford such a misstep. Another concern is the engineering networking associated with job placement opportunities. Ironically, these colleges may solve my dilemma by not accepting me.