Hello and fencing for a 11 year old boy

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1

<p>Hi, I am new to this forum. I am planning to sign my 11 years old boy up for a small fencing club. I did some research about the chance of fencing into ivy league colleges and I found this forum.</p>

<p>I know it is too early to even know whether my son will be good in fencing or not. but I like to collect information to get him into the right direction in case he shows any interest or talent. for example, at this age, what kind of goal he should target? many other boys in this club starting at age 8 or 9. He starts late comparing to them. Will it be disadvantage? How can he make up those lost time? </p>

<p>Anyway, I am glad to find this forum and many experienced people</p>

<p>P.S. my son got his black belt six months ago from karate after 6 years training since he was 4. He had few fencing classes and summer camps when he was little. I let him complete the karate before he moves on to other sports. He tried other martial arts and wrestling for a while but decides he likes fencing better.</p>

<p>I don't think his karate skills can be transferred to fecning.</p>

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<p>Age 11 is not too late to start, but he’ll have a litle catching up to do.</p>

<p>In my opinion, your son’s karate background provides an excellent foundation for fencing. First, the physical and mental discipline he learned in earning his blackbelt will serve him well. Then there’s the leg strength he’ll bring to the strip. Footwork is critical in fencing, and your son will start with a huge advantage.</p>

<p>I’ll try to give you all the advice I can, but first a few questions for you or the club coach:</p>

<p>Which weapon(s) does your local club specialize in?<br>
Does this club send kids to national competitions, and how well do they do?
Have fencers from this club gone on to fence in college before?
Are there other clubs from which to choose in your area?</p>

3

<p>@sherpa, I am so glad to see your reply. I saw your advices for others and you are so helpful and knowledgeable.</p>

<p>This club has a long standing history for “a boy only” fencing club for many years. They also have two other clubs for girl/family and competitive adults.</p>

<p>This club teaches all three weapons. yes, it sends kids to national competitions. I think they do good. That’s the first thing I ask about the club. Yes, they have kids gone to college because of the fencing talent. a three star general at West Point is their most famous graduate.</p>

<p>There are two other clubs to choose from. I like this one because it is very close to my home and does not have that commercial club style the other one has. It has very strong parents supports, kinda like boy scout. I talk to two parents there. One boy was transferred from other club 7 months ago and his skills improves a lot. the other starts there at age 8 and now is 15. He competes well. They told me the new coach is so flexible in a way that they almost get a customized training to meet their needs. </p>

<p>I am going to take advantage of this flexibility and close to home to help my son speeding up the training to catch up with other kids.</p>

<p>It took at least 25 minutes one way (without any traffic) to go to Karate training. at least one hour just for the transportation for karate and much more time for his violin lessons. I am tired of driving by now.</p>

<p>The highest fencer is B rating right now. Not sure whether it can produce A fencer. I have to ask.</p>

<p>The new coach serves on a regional level of some fencing organization. He said they have very strong college connections. It means they can pick up the phone to many college coaches.</p>

<p>I am aiming for ivy league if my son can show any motivations for competitions. But he has to have good academic performance first. This club probably can get him to some colleges but not sure about ivy league.</p>

<p>I think he may need some private lessons to catch up with other kids if he shows any potential after the beginner classes.</p>

<p>There is no fencing clubs on his public HS or few other private schools that we look into. So, he will not be able to get any leadership in fencing club if he can’t compete well in national level. I need to find a way to make him look good on his college resume if he can’t be a A fencer.</p>

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<p>This is the background of the head coach:</p>

<hr>

<p>Head coach Fencing Institute of America – Baltimore (2001 – present)</p>

<p>Interim head coach Salle Palasz & Tri-Weapon Fencing Club (2011 – present)</p>

<p>Assistant coach The Johns Hopkins University men’s fencing team (2000 – 2001)</p>

<p>Head coach The Johns Hopkins University women’s fencing team (1999 – 2000)</p>

<p>Assistant head coach Fencing Institute of America in Pittsburgh, PA (1995 – 2000)</p>

<p>Head coach Fencing For Fun (1989 – 1995)</p>

<p>Certified Moniteur d’Escrime in foil, epee, and sabre by the United States Fencing Coaches Association</p>

<p>Nationally Rated Referee in all three weapons, certified FOC Examiner</p>

<p>Chairman, MidAtlantic Section of US Fencing
NCAA MAFCA team championships 1984, 1985, 1986, and 2001</p>

<p>Varsity team letter The Johns Hopkins University (1986)</p>

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<p>This WAS the heightlight of the “history” to this club.</p>

<p>It probally does not happen any more since the founding father passed away two years ago.</p>

<p>I believe the three star general at West Point and also the current managers were among the finest fencers in this club during the peak time. Will they able to reproduce the same result with the current coach???</p>

<hr>

<p>Since the club was formed in 1960, TWC fencers have excelled at the national, sectional, and local levels. </p>

<p>They have won the state team titles, dominated the state age-group championships year after year, and won medals in sectional tournaments. Twelve boys thus far have been able to attend college because of their fencing talent, and TWC has three National Under-16 champions to its credit.</p>

<p>Three of the top four places in the 1993 U.S. National sabre championship were taken by TWC graduates, and two of these men also fenced on the 1988 and 1992 United States Olympic teams. We are very proud of our program and our history that has produced outstanding fencers and scholars</p>

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<p>Ok, now I know this club is not that great comparing to other club who produces a list of fencers going to ivy league. but that club is almost an hour away without traffic. I don’t think I will send my son there without knowing his potential.</p>

<p>I guess we have to stuck with this local one for now.</p>

7

<p>

Absolutely. And not just because others will have a few years head start. Lots of private lessons will be needed for any beginning fencer to develop into a NCAA level competitor. Plan on two private lessons per week for years. For example, my kids started taking weekly lessons at ages 10 (daughter) and 12 (son) from their club coach and continued with this until they went to college, and continue to take weekly private lessons from their college coaches. It’s something all fencers must do if they want to become and/or remain competitive.</p>

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<p>Ok, two private fencing lessons and one private violin lesson each week. He is a expensive kid…:-)</p>

<p>how long is the fencing private lesson?</p>

<p>What do you think about the qualification of this coach? I guess he can help my son to get to certain point but may not be to highest level? Then, we will have to drive far to find better coach?</p>

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<p>another question. when to decide to have private lessons? wait till he shows potential? or take private lessons for a while until we know he has NO potential?</p>

<p>I let him take private violin lessons not because he has talent but because I want him to learn volin. Even he has no talent, I still want thim to learn to some points. I may stop the private lesson if I don’t think it is worth the time and money.</p>

<p>Should I do the same with fencing? Invest some time and money into it to see whether he is the material?</p>

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<p>Cottontree, you need to relax. It’s a long road to nurture a successful musician or athlete. You are working hard to provide your child various opportunities. That is wonderful. However, your focus on “building” his credential to get into an Ivy will create stress for the child (and you) down the road. Give him a great environment to learn from the best, see if he enjoys the process. Sports teach teenagers so many qualities such as disciplines and time management that will help your child to be a better student and applicant when he is in high school, “material” or not. </p>

<p>I found that to be real good at something, the reward has to be intrinsic. Don’t worry about what you might need to do down the road if he is real good. He will want to get better and you will drive him anywhere to help him get better. If he doesn’t care much about it, you can’t make him better. Have a plan, but go by it a season at a time. And do enjoy the process of watching your child grow into a fine young man through many aspects of sports.</p>

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<p>I understand what you say and I agree with you totally. I have two other threads. you can check them out through my “statistics” and know more about what I have tried so far with my son. then you will know I have no way to force him into anything. at the end he is till the one decide what he wants to do.</p>

<p>Give you one more examples about karate that I have not shared on other threads so far.</p>

<p>It took him 6 years in Kenpo karate to get his black belt. There were at least three times in those 6 years I wanted to pull him out of the karate and tried something else. but he refused to do other sports no matter how many sports camps I sent him to during the summer and how much he enjoyed them.</p>

<p>He said " those are just sports. I want to learn to self-defend through martial arts".</p>

<p>Ok, then I hope he can be a super star in Kenpo Karate since he is so passionate about martial arts. He even told me he wants to learn all the martial arts (at least 500 of them after he read some books). Then he might have the ticket to ivy league with karate. Well, things did not with my plan.</p>

<p>After few years of tournaments, he refused to go to tournaments any more except “demo team” competitions. He loves demo team. I call it “boy style dance competition”.</p>

<p>This school is owned by the present of the kenpo karate association. They have two teenage super stars who dominate the competition for their age and rank. There are also few teenage black belts are doing great in tournaments. I hope my son can be as good as those teenagers. He is taught directly by one of the super star.</p>

<p>but no. He only went to class twice a week. He did not want to practice more at home and did not want to have private lesson.</p>

<p>I thought maybe he is still too young and need to give him some time. but I saw a 6 years old girl in the tournament doing super great. She loves karate and spends time practice all day long and takes private lessons. same with another boy who is younger than him starting with karate for only two years. This boy wants to compete all the time. He takes private lessons for the tournaments and he competes well.</p>

<p>I talked to his teacher and the owner. they told me my son is super smart in memorizing all the forms and steps. He is the only kid can do that in the whole school, including adults. His physically coordination is on the top 10 % but his talent and interest for karate is only above average. He may change later when he is older.</p>

<p>I give up my dream for him to become super star in karate but let him have fun without any competition and get his black belt. After getting black belt, he has no interest to continue and move on to something else.</p>

<p>So, there is no way I can force him into anything to become good if he has no interest in it. And my son makes it very clear to me that he will not do anything he does not like.</p>

<p>I think you get my point after this long story.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Your plan? How about helping him shape His Plan into something that could help him into the Ivy’s? Ok, being tops at Kenpo Karate is not going to work. How about helping him develop a variety of Martial Arts skills? Mix in Judo, and one of the more military styles (more offensive than defensive). He can demonstrate a passion by knowing the in’s and out’s of the various styles, and become an expert in helping others appreciate the differences.</p>

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<p>I tried that without success. Maybe it is ME does not know how to develop his plan. And I think his plan has changed as he grows.</p>

<p>I wrote about this “wresting” plan. let me repeat here.</p>

<p>After karate, he makes it very clear that he wants to learn how to do “underground” fighting because that happens most time on street fight and when people are bullied. Most of martial arts are for “above” the ground fighting, such as karate. On street fight, people attack you unexpectedly not like on the competition that you are ready for “fighting”.</p>

<p>In other words, he does not think his karate training can really protect him on street fight, or at least he still does not know how to use all those skills to protect himself. He thinks those skills are useless. I guess he develops these NEW observations when he is older and have some “fun” fights with boys in the neighborhood. He read the books about 500 styles when he was much younger without any real “fighting” experience.</p>

<p>So, we did research and went to different marsh art schools to try out things. He insists wresting should be the best one for underground fighting. </p>

<p>It is so hard to find “youth wresting” training that offer year around like martial arts. I even call HS wrestling coach to get referrals. I found one marshal art club offering wresting training but very few kids there and the schedule is very seasonal. All the referred clubs responded to me but they only open at Oct and Nov for few months. So, there is no way we can get a wrestling training regularly like martial arts. Finally, I came through a wrestling summer camp fitting his summer schedule. After three days intensive training, he decides he does not like wrestling even he learns how to fight people better. He did not like the feeling be thrown to the floor by others.</p>

<p>Through this summer camp, I found there is a workshop offered by a university wrestling club to HS kids and younger weekly. This university is only 10 minutes from my house. but my son now refuses to go.</p>

<p>No, he is only interested in “protecting himself” on street fight. He is not interested in attacking people. He only wants “self-defense”. That’s why he is not interested in other martial arts that are more offensive than defensive. He knows what he wants.</p>

<p>At this moment, he does not want to do martial art. He does not think they are really helpful for street fighting. Fencing with sword seems like more appealing to him since he had exposure to it when he was little.</p>

<p>I wrote on my other thread “National History Day” about why he likes WW II and Medieval time history because of the weapon they used. He likes sword. He even did a special social science project about weapon used in medieval time when most of kids in his class even did not know there is such time period in history.</p>

<p>That’s why I will take this trail “fencing” offer to see whether he is still interested in it. If he does not like it, we will continue to try other things. </p>

<p>He is very picky. or hs is still trying to defind what he wants. I can only let him try this and that…<em>sigh</em></p>

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<p>He is still young to figure out a plan for himself. All you can do is try to spot his passions, and help him constructively develop them.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Most self-defense requires some type of responsive attack. This is an interesting link for defensive martial arts. Krav Maga looks interesting.
[Top</a> 10 Martial Arts for Self Defense](<a href=“http://listverse.com/2010/05/15/top-10-martial-arts-for-self-defense/]Top”>Top 10 Martial Arts for Self Defense - Listverse)</p>

<p>Maybe if he learns Krav Maga and Keysi, he can start a club in High School that discusses basic self-defense moves if they are attacked by surprise. Girls might be interested in that ;)</p>

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<p>Thanks for the background info. As OperaDad said, your son is still young and just trying to figure out his area of passion. Kudos to your efforts in helping him in the process. You have been extremely supportive.</p>

<p>My personal experience is that you will know when they are ready to commit. My S swam up and down the lane because his sister swam. By the end of age 12, I asked him if he was serious about being the best he could be since he was pretty good without putting in conscious efforts to always pursue excellence in every practice. I said I would do everything I could to support him but I expected to see nothing but his best in all practices. He thought about it and told me yes. He began to progress significantly. By age 13, he notified me that he would like to quit his violin lessons that he started since he was 5 to focus on swimming. I was very sad but knew it was his decision to make. I understand your point for violin lessons. It’s more than music. It’s about discipline and working toward something that’s hard. </p>

<p>The thing I learned from this process is that when my S found what he wanted and took ownership of it. It is when everything took off. He wants to swim fast because he wants to win. He wants to be the best not because it will help him in college admission (though it has). You are doing great in providing your son with all the opportunities. Give him some time and when he commits to pursue excellence, he will gain the admission advantage.</p>

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<p>Last night, we went to the “free” fencing “class” before we commit the membership. Something mess up with the “class” appointment. So, we stay for the group practice with other boys for 1.5 hours.</p>

<p>His karate training and past exposure to fencing gave him a good head start. </p>

<p>Coach immediately knows that he had training in the past because he catches up with other boys in workout immediately. His good memory serves him well in this case. He remembers most of the basic moves from previous beginner course and a weekly long summer camp when he was 7 years old. Coach said he does not need to start from the beginning. It saves him 8 weeks beginner course from this club.</p>

<p>He is recommended to learn sabre. He was paired with another boy who is 9 years old but taller than him. My son said " the other boy probably does not have karate training so he could not control his sabre well yet. He almost hits me. I have to block his sabre away". I think my son’s weapon training in karate helps him to control his sabre quickly.</p>

<p>Footwork is a piece of cake for him “for now”.</p>

<p>I was told that sabre has the most difficult rules. I think my son should not have problem to memorize those difficult rules after six years of memorizing all the forms and steps in karate.</p>

<p>I don’t mean he will excel in fencing just like he did not excel in karate. but learning to fence probably will not be difficult for him based on the progress he made in the first day.</p>

<p>He did well in karate. He competed well in his belt rank. But he chooses to do only the required steps for belt promotion. He considers tournaments boring and not fun. I felt the same.</p>

<p>Karate tournament is like competition in figure skating. After your performance, 3 judges will give out their scores. You get the first place if you have the highest scores. So, you need to do harder and fancy steps in your belt rank in order to get high scores. </p>

<p>My son is not interested in doing those fancy and harder steps to earn high scores. He thinks they are fun to learn but not fun for competition. He enjoys sparring with other kids. But he does not want to go to a tournament just to compete for sparring. It is not worth of his time. I agree. So, we drop the karate tournament since he was 8 years old. </p>

<p>He wants to earn black belt. It gives him a sense of accomplishment. He told me "no one will mess up with me now since I have the black belt’. He did NOT tell other kids that he had the black belt. He did not want to brag about his accomplishment but it gives him a self-esteem boost. He does not like to practice violin because it is hard. but he admits he felt great that he can play violin well when he was in the 5th grade string band.</p>

<p>Now, we need to see whether he has the motivations to compete in fencing or he just wants to learn to fence.</p>

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<p>I agree with the sentiments about not pushing our kids, not trying to mold an activity for admissions, etc., but since you’re asking for nuts and bolts advice, I’ll try to stick to that.</p>

<p>I’m not surprised about how the first session went. Footwork is very important and he’s ahead of the game there. He sounds intellectually disciplined but not overly aggressive.</p>

<p>I’d recommend foil, not sabre. The rules are very similar, but at the risk of over generalizing, the participants are different. Foil fencers tend to be more cerebral and sabe fencers more aggressive. Just my gut feeling, I think your son would like foil more.</p>

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<p>Saw this thread pop up in “recent” and thought I could add my two cents.</p>

<p>I have a Y12 WF who has been training for a bout 2.5 years and competing for 1. I will say that it is possible for a kid to catch up quickly. I know of one boy from another club who had only been fencing for a year but who podium’d at an SYC last year. I forget what weapon. </p>

<p>In my opinion, I think younger boys do very well at saber…where in many ways, it’s about aggressiveness and speed of that first action. As for having more complicated rules, I always think of epee as the most tough to understand (take this with a grain of salt as it’s coming from the POV of a parent of a foilist).</p>

<p>One thing I want to point out to you is that the East Coast has some CRAZY intense competition at the Y10/Y12 foil level for both genders. There is a kid in NJ who I’m pretty sure is the youngest B rated fencer in the country. Unless your son is Superman, he’s not going to break the top 25 in terms of national points or NAC/SYCs for a while.</p>

<p>A few more thoughts: </p>

<p>I found your statement “I am aiming for ivy league if my son can show any motivations for competitions.” moderately troubling. For a few reasons. First, as others have opined, it’s not really you who should be “aiming” for anything…it’s your kid. While I know that many kids can naturally be lazy and or lack direction/ambition, I would caution you take a step back.</p>

<p>Before you jump on me, here’s where I’m coming from: I’m an Asian American dad who went to an Ivy myself and do not have any “plans” for my kids to follow in my footsteps if they don’t have the same desire or aptitude (and given how competitive admittance to these schools is now vs. when I went, they’ll need more than I had!). My daughter is the one who wanted to try fencing and we have supported her as much as we are able to financially (it ain’t cheap!)…it wasn’t “my” idea.</p>

<p>Also, in terms of fencing and college…and I’m basing this on the choice of what I consider the best American foilist we have (a female, Lee Kiefer), I’d think Notre Dame (where Lee is now a freshman), Ohio State, or Penn State are the places you’d want to be if you were really serious about competitive fencing. Or maybe St. John’s.</p>

<p>Yes, I know that Susie Scanlan and Maya Lawrence are Princetonians, and that Lee’s older sister (and former NCAA champ) goes to Harvard. But those larger state and Big 10/Big East schools have great programs.</p>

<p>Another thought…I do see fencing as a good “hook” for the D3 schools…LACs that have programs which would be happy to see an experienced frosh help the team from the start.</p>

<p>A final word of advice…if you son does want to pursue the sport seriously, look into the Fencer’s Club summer camp in the Berkshires. Bucky Leach is arguably the best coach in the country and he works out of FC. Since you are not from the NYC region, the Berkshires camp is a good way to get some Olympic level coaching…</p>

<p>Best of luck to you and your son. I hope he has fun growing in the sport…</p>

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<p>I know my three threads generate quite a lot attention in this “college” related forum because my son is only 11 years old.</p>

<p>I know by using lots of connection with ivy league , I will get beaten up by many parents because they think I am to ambitious and pushy for my son. </p>

<p>However, I decide to try it out to see how much I will get beaten up. Not too bad after I give enough explainations. Most parest did read my post carefully to understand where I am from. Thanks!</p>

<hr>

<p>Iy you read my thread carefully, you should realize I am really not this type of parent.</p>

<p>For example, if I really plan to use fencing as a vehicle for my son to go to ivy league, I would pull him out of karate when I sent him to fencing summer camp and beginner courses when he was 7 years old. But I did not. I waited until he gave up wrestling and there is nothing else to try, then I pick up the fencing again.</p>

<p>I let him tried many sports in summer. Fencing only got one week long summer camp and 8 hours beginning courses when tannins, swimming, soccer, footballs, water sports, sailing, outdoor camps got much more weeks attentions than fencing.</p>

<p>He likes individual sports over team sports because too much attention and competitions among boys. He is very lay back, quite, shy, and not aggressive at all. He was not even into karate competition because he does not care about those trophies. He has his ways of value his time. I have no ways to influence him but only go with his wish. </p>

<p>I also will not go out my way to create a super start if there are too much price to pay for each activity. For example, I found one tae kown do school that creates many state, regional, national, and international kids. I took my son to their “training camp” before the competition just to see what happen. After the visit, my son and me both do not want to go back again. Why? </p>

<p>It took one hour one way to get to the place. Two hours intense training. So, total of 4 hours in Saturday. After the training, my son was tired for the rest of day. The training will be at least 8 weeks before the competitions besides private lesson and group lessons. I am not going to devote my son this much time to one sport just hope he might get into competition. So, we both decided to give it up.</p>

<p>Another reason I did not let my son go to fencing when he was young was because all the clubs are far away from us and the traffic is not good. I don’t want to spend time on traffic just because it has potential linking to ivy league.</p>

<p>The fencing club I choose to go now is only relocated to my area ONE year ago. Now, I am willing to go because it is only 10 minute drive and my son did not want to go to wrestling any more. The timing is just right for him to try fencing NOW not because I want him to use it to go to ivy. </p>

<p>With his lay back personality, I am not even sure he can survive the acadmic competition if he is admitted to the ivy league. </p>

<p>He told me “mommy, the true happiness it to get to do whatever you want to do, even they are just small little things”. He knows the definition of “true happiness” at his age already.</p>

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<p>Welcome to the discussion SevenDad. It’s nice to have a knowledgable parent on board. I agree with most of your observations but will focus on our slight disagreements.</p>

<p>2011 final standings in ( ). While I’ll acknowledge that OSU (1) and ND (3) are better, I’d argue that the Ivy League offers the strongest fencing in the country. </p>

<p>The only state schools with big time fencing are OSU (1) and PSU (5). The next publics are Temple (14) and Air Force (15).</p>

<p>The Ivies, Princeton (2), Harvard (6), Penn (7), Columbia/Barnard (8), Yale (12), Brown (13), and Cornell (18) definitely hold there own against any other conference.</p>

<p>I’ll grant that OSU and Notre Dame are deeper than the others; in fact, I think they could each field “B” teams that would make the top 10.</p>

<p>The teams rounding out the rest of the top 15 are St. John’s (4), Duke (9), and Northwestern (11).</p>

<p>Clearly, college fencing is top-heavy, with the kids with strong fencing and strong academics going to Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Air Force, etc.; a few kids with very strong fencing and good but not great academics going to OSU, PSU, St. John’s, Temple, etc., often on scholarship; with only a relatively few other colleges with NCAA fencing, and several with only club fencing.</p>

<p>There are a few more of note (JHU, Vassar, Brandeis, Haverford, UCSD) but those too are academic powerhouses.</p>

<p>It would be nice if at least one non-Ivy athletic conference offered a full table of competitive fencing teams but, unfortunately, no.</p>

<p>I’d also advise holding back on going to a FC or MTeam level camp for several years. A relative beginner would be eaten alive there.</p>