@bouders I’m honestly not sure, I have not seen the paper and DD is so upset I’m trying not to discuss. I do know that the citation was for paragraphs which covered close to 2 full pages. Her school will make her report it, I checked with her college councilor. He said, depending on where she applies early, she may have the opportunity to meet directly with someone in the admissions department to explain. Her topic and thesis are fascinating plus she is a beautiful writer. Her LOR will be very strong.She was a senate page and has very strong LORs from two senators.
Dos, “many.” Not “all.”
One can read what various colleges write about plagiarism/citations, among their students. It’s serious stuff. It primarily refers to work that’s not your own, but mis-citing is included. You can read about use of secondary sources vs primary and attribution issues.
BUT. It seems the hs is willing to say, one error in an otherwise satisfactory (or better) record. (One out of 80+ citations.) That they have confidence in her. From a private hs, that’s big. Adcoms carefully read the disciplinary section, not auto assume or reject.
This isn’t about our parent reactions, what you think of a school the kid attended throughout her education. Nor, predicting doom.
My advice is Penn and Vandy were always reaches. Reality.
“Schools have policies. To me, it sounds like the school is trying to do the best it can by the student while maintaining the integrity of their policy, even if many here deem it to be harsh.”
The policy addressed plagiarism, and we’re not all in agreement that what OP’s daughter did, was, in fact, plagiarism. The school should stick to it’s plagiarism policy, but a mis-citation is very possibly outside of that policy. As a result, a student has a potentially unfair black mark on her record and feels she can not apply to all her first choice colleges. As a parent, I would fight that, not necessarily in court, but I would exhaust all of my in-house appeals, all the way to the school board or board of trustees.
How is it serving as an example to others if no other students know about it? It’s not.
There is no support from this school. The only lesson learned was that if you make a tiny mistake, they will change your future. Not a great environment for kids to be trapped in just for a shot at a prestigious college.
And this is why so many kids are so suffering from mental health issues. This school has put this young woman in a horrible position. Kids are afraid to make mistakes because of situations like this. I could not handle this type of stress, why do we allow schools to do this to our kids? Whatever happened to schools, especially high schools, being places to learn, and instead just turn out 36/1600 scores like robots? This woman has surely learned her lesson. It should not follow her to college. And the school should be ashamed of itself for creating this environment.
I read @doschicos post #59 quickly, and misread the reference to “nurturing” children academically as “torturing” children academically. Granted that was my mistake, but from my perspective, that says a lot about this academic environment.
And I’m cringing at OP’s suggestion that the family would consider pulling her out of this school to have their daughter repeat her junior year. If they want to move on from Vandy or Penn due to perceived pressure or reduced admissions likelihood, I can accept that. But putting an intelligent young woman a year behind in her academic progression would be a huge mistake IMHO.
"The school should stick to it’s plagiarism policy, but a mis-citation is very possibly outside of that policy. "
My guess is you’d find mis-citation in a lot of school’s policies. But, the OP can look at the school policy, which I’m sure is written down somewhere in a handbook and/or online, and ascertain for certain what is spelled out.
“feels she can not apply to all her first choice colleges”
I doubt the school is forcing the student not to apply to those schools. It’s still an option.
“There is no support from this school. The only lesson learned was that if you make a tiny mistake, they will change your future. Not a great environment for kids to be trapped in just for a shot at a prestigious college.”
The lesson learned is how to right a research paper and cite correctly, which will definitely come in handy in whatever college the student attends. Given the way the OP describes the private HS, it does sound like a highly academic place. I’m sure that is the mission the administration feels it fulfills - educating teenagers - not “just for a shot at a prestigious college”.
These private schools can have very strict policies vs. public schools. Yes, it is heartbreaking for families when this happens but one signs on the dotted line. And, it’s not the end of the world. Many great schools to apply to and a well-crafted “I learned from it” letter/essay from the student can put it into context and diminish the impact.
Honestly, if this is the worst that happens to this student, it really isn’t that bad in the scheme of things. Not trying to downplay any pain she is in but much worse could happen. She’s bright, healthy and will be okay. Truly. I’ve know more than a handful of bright students with marks on their disciplinary record and they have still gone to great schools.
@karen0 : Once your children are free of this miserable institution and its obvious penchant for excessive punishment, I think you should identify the school for the benefit of others. This is just plain stupid.
^I suspect that this is a Tony NYC day school where children are groomed to apply to from birth (not saying the OP did this!). People who are lucky enough to have their children accepted there in elementary school (especially multiple children) feel fortunate to be there. OP mentioned she was once a trustee, so the school is like family. This probably hurts alot when your family wrongs you. [Hugs]
OP, please do not change your Ds college timeline because of this issue. At the end of the day, the info will still be there and the competitive landscape for colleges gets worse by the year. She may still end up at merely mortal top 50 school instead of her desired Top 20 anyway. And shell have to suffer through another junior year, making new friends, etc. Just get her to college.
I understand you are sad and disappointed. The student will remember the lesson and that may stand her well in later life. She wouldn’t have been admitted to Vandy or Penn, any way, and it would do her a world of good to be in a gentler college where she would stand out academically on her own and aot always have to work so hard to keep up. At such a school she would blossom in confidence and maturity
I don’t get this either. How is a mistake in citation academic dishonesty? It sounds like the school knows it was a genuine mistake and not plagiarism . I can totally see docking the grade, but suspension and a flag on the transcript seems totally ridiculous.
I too would not change your plans for college or graduation time lime. I would also fight this with the school. No way that this should be an honors code violation that is on her permanent record.
If I were an admissions rep, the write up would reflect more on the high school than your daughter. What kind of high school declares a junior “academically dishonest” because of a citing error on a 30 page research report. That’s absurd. I’m sorry it happened to your daughter.
Before submitting the paper did she go over twice to make sure her citations are correct?
xx
@RandyErika We are considering moving her to boarding school because she is almost a full calendar year younger than most of her classmates and we think she could use an extra year of maturity; plus we want her to experience some lightness and fun in high school. Our son had a fantastic experience This is not about college matriculation.
@karen0 What does she think about that idea? Had it ever come up before this?
As you know, it may be difficult this late in the year, but can be done. The BS forum may be of help.
@karen0 You know your daughter better than any of us, and it seems clear you are only interested in doing what’s best for her. However, if you’re really concerned about her maturity and readiness for the next stage, might not a gap year after high school make more sense than repeating her junior year?
I reacted to, " I spoke to both her principle and college councilor today, the charge will indeed impact where she applies. The school will be supportive in how they write about the incident but her reach schools such as Penn and Vandy are coming off her list."
As I mentioned in my post 50, at my D’s HS, they would have said that this should not negatively impact where she gets into, and they would have spent the time with her ( a good kid who made a mistake, not intentionally plagerized) on her “remorse essay” and would have spent extra time on her GC LOR. My D’s HS has done this for many kids who went on to T20 schools, at least according to my D’s GC.
So yeah, I do think that the school is not giving its student the support she deserves. I am also very worried for the D about what her take-away from all of this is going to be. I’m concerned that she might feel shamed (reinforced by the secret) and not good enough.
My comment about yanking all of OP’s kids out of that school goes to my POV that schools are in a partnership with the parents in raising good kids that will do well in their lives and in society. I don’t think it is healthy for people, especially kids, to be in an overly punitive atmosphere. Where you dot every i and cross every t or else you get moved to a different track because you committed a mistake. This isn’t healthy! This does nothing to create resilience in kids, nothing to promote honesty, nothing to promote good self-esteem and mental health. I DO think there need to be repercussions, but those repercussions have to fit the error, and kids need to be shown a route back to the path they were on before they made the mistake, and given a chance to take that route.
If it were me, this issue would have shown me that this school does not promote the overall welfare of the child, and does not share my values. This is an excellent reason to leave a school community and move on to one that does.
About repeating Junior Year, OP said that she thought her daughter had some issues this year because she is not as mature as others in her grade, particularly because she is young. If OP’s D goes to a new school next year, where she will hopefully be in an atmosphere that is conductive to the concepts of growth, personal responsibility AND redemption, it could be very nice to start off as a Junior. This would give her more of a chance to make friends, more of a chance to get to know teachers at her new school (for LORs), and give her a breather before facing the issue of applying to colleges. I’d assume she’d be a bit afraid of applying to colleges now with this hanging over her head.
I don’t understand - the girl made a citation error, that was NOT deliberate, or obvious, plagiarism, and she gets dinged on her transcript with academic misconduct? What’s the difference between someone who cheats, or plagiarizes, or sabotages his competitor’s work, and someone who makes an honest, simple mistake? How about simply being taught again the nuts and bolts of accurate citation? I mean, this is high school, not a PhD thesis!
This is insane. I’m surprised that no one has mentioned taking legal action against the school over this (although I haven’t read the entire thread).
YES, I would most definitely pull your kids out of this school. If they are doing this to your daughter (and again, I have a feeling that getting a lawyer involved would take care of that, pronto), then why would you want your children there? Unless you’re not telling us the whole story, your daughter made an honest mistake, and for that she’s being ruined?
Lest you think that this will not affect your daughter’s admission chances, let me tell you about an incident about ten years ago. Kid was second in the class (by about .00001 GPA points) at a nationally renowned private prep school. Brilliant kid. Tons of extraordinarily impressive extracurriculars. Perfect SATs. Well-rounded. Nice kid. Kid did something stupid one night with a bunch of other kids from the school (driving around, egged a classmate’s house). Kid was not the instigator, but he participated. All the rest of the perpetrators lied and got expelled. Kid told the truth, admitted it had been stupid, apologized, made restitution. Got a ten day suspension. When it came time for admissions, kid was rejected virtually EVERYWHERE. Admitted to local state flagship, went there. It definitely changed the course of his life.
Get your daughter out of there. Have her repeat junior year elsewhere. Lawyer up and have them reflect NOTHING on her transcript, and make sure she only got less than 10% off the grade for the paper for her honest mistake. If there wasn’t anything missing from your story, shame on them.
I have a kid who needed a separate supplement for his transgressions. He still got into 3 top 25 schools. It all depends upon how the school and student treats the this issue. It’s a difficult time, and you are on the frontlines with your child on this so you have to do what you feel is best. I wish you the best. It’s not s big deal in the scope of things but for you directly involved and it happening now, it feels like the end of the world.
Ugh, what a horrible situation. I have some experience in a similar situation through a family member who made a truly innocent mistake and the school (also a tony private school) over reacted and suspended the student with a mark on the “permanent record.” Things were looking very bleak. The same options were discussed. Pull the student, litigate, stay the course. Staying the course was the toughest option but that is what the parents chose to do. The school in our family members situation basically said the infraction would not show on a transcript and would only be reported in Ivy League or military academy applications counselor reports where that type of issue is always disclosed. This student was not applying to those types of schools so in the long run it did not matter. The school did offer a withdraw with no mark on the record but the student did not want to start over so that option was off the table.
Your daughter needs to know that this mistake will not haunt her forever and to use it as a lesson for the future. Sometimes justice is rendered harshly when grace and understanding could have been offered instead. If the description is correct, the punishment does not seem to fit the infraction. The cards have been dealt, how she plays the hand is the only thing in her control now.
There is a movement to remove the discipline question from college applications. This could be helpful as if the college doesn’t ask there is nothing to disclose. Kids make mistakes. The UC system and Cal State schools do not ask for disciplinary histories. UC Berkeley may be a great option for her. I believe the Coalition app also boasts the discipline question as optional and some Coalition schools opt not to ask it. Perhaps they realize a mistake at the age of 16 is just that, a mistake, and not something to chart the course of a life upon. Even criminals can get their records sealed or expunged or get a pardon. The school, unfortunately, is the judge, jury and executioner.
These kids are under too much pressure at too young of an age. You have your daughter’s back. Let her know that this too shall pass and she will be ok. It is hard to believe now but it is true. Have her apply to her dream schools anyway. Be honest and explain the situation. Keep meticulous documentation. Apply to some prestigious backups that don’t care about the high school discipline history as a backup plan. Tell your daughter to keep her chin up and learn from her mistake and move on. Build resilience.