You’re welcome! It was no headache at all. With respect to the PhD programs, it was just an internet search with something like, “undergraduate schools with most math PhDs” or something like that.
With respect to the math & philosophy programs, I decided that since I’ve been following this thread that it might actually be beneficial to see what Oxford’s program was like. Then I just wondered, are there any math & philosophy programs in the U.S.? And then did an internet search with basically those terms. There are some other UK universities that have that program. I think it was mentioned here that he can apply to up to 5 UK universities or something like that? Doing a search on those might help fill in alternative spots on the UK application, should they interest your son.
Thanks for keeping us updated on the college search! I love interesting stories, and this is definitely one of them!
Interesting. Thank you @Twoin18. I am surprised to hear that the ‘math nerd’ type is common - I’ve actually not met many…
Immediate follow up question: is ist beneficial or detrimental for a class to have that range of ability? I could see an argument made for that being the case. I could also see an argument made for the opposite.
As we are talking about safeties, I think a large range of abilities is going to happen naturally - lets say the top 0.1%, knowing they are the top 0.1%, all apply to MIT and get swooped up. Of the rest, from the top 0.5% downwards, let’s say, some get accepted, some won’t. So they will distribute all over the colleges they have identified as safeties, together with everybody who has identified these colleges as their first, second and nth choice.
I am interpreting you to say that lower math ability leads to lower grades, explaining the low GPAs. Is that so?
Thank you - I think I googled something similar at one point, but your google skills are better than mine. (Might be due to me using DuckDuckGo?).
The problem with the US philosophy and math programs are, according to my kid, that the ones he researched are usually BA math with philosophy. And he wants to do a BS in math? However, you list U of Rochester (which, tbh, I know absolutely nothing about) and that seems to allow a BS in math with a minor in philosophy. Hm…
The degree title BA versus BS does not matter unless a college offers both in the same major, in which case one has to compare the requirements to see what is different between them. Across different colleges, the fact that one offers a BA and another offers a BS in the same major does not by itself indicate anything about how the requirements compare.
U. of Rochester has a number of strong programs, and it’s closer than Oxford and has a higher acceptance rate than Yale. I definitely think it’s worth it to do a little more digging.
I couldn’t find out if Yale’s Mathematics & Philosophy program was a B.A. or B.S., but I saw that through its regular mathematics department that a B.S. is offered. Even if your son “earned” a B.A., couldn’t he just take the additional classes that would have been taken as a B.S. Any grad school would surely look at his transcript, though admittedly on a resume he would only have B.A. But he sounds like the kind of person who has a high likelihood of going on to grad school for math, so it might not really matter how his undergrad degree is labeled.
UW’s math & philosophy is a BA, but the regular math department offers a B.S. U. of Toronto is a B.S.
Would your son be interested in a B.S. in Math and a minor in philosophy, particularly at universities that already seem to have strong crossover between math & philosophy? That might widen the pool if he’s looking for smaller colleges.
Colleges that award a B.A. for a course of study in mathematics commonly do so as a matter of institutional tradition rather than as a reflection of course requirements, availability and content. If your son restricts his search to schools that award a B.S., he may counterproductively limit his choices.
Lower grades can be a result of not working hard enough, being distracted by other things, etc. However, perhaps more so than most other subjects, good grades can be achieved in math without working hard if you have natural ability, and without sufficient understanding you won’t do well however hard you work (I switched from science to math in college because it was much less work, in particular no labs).
I do agree with @1NJParent that a range of ability means the class has to be taught at a lower level, which is less than ideal. I would definitely look for safety colleges with an honors math track, which will also mean small classes: D took honors calc 3 her first semester of college (at Utah) and it only had 14 students (12 got As). The pre-rec was a 5 in Calc BC.
Even at a four-year college, the atmosphere associated with students primarily interested in mathematics will be most apparent in certain elective courses. Staple courses may include students whose interests tend primarily toward, say, finance (and who would be pursuing math in combination with economics). However, students with an interest in finance would be unlikely to choose courses in esoteric math electives or in crossover topics that may be of interest to your son, such as in mathematical physics or general relativity.
Diversity of ability in the same class on any academic subject is never a good thing. Not all diversities are beneficial.
Well - we are talking about the difference between the top 10% compared to the top 1% compared to the top 0.1%. At some point there necessarily will be diversity, as there is, as far as I can tell, no way to ensure homogeneity in abilities.
Also, we are talking about ‘safety’ schools - schools that are chosen for the likelihood of getting accepted, which means, as everybody is telling me, that the student should be above the average GPA and test score, as well as that the school should have a high acceptance rate. Wouldn’t this necessarily mean that you most likely find a larger diversity in abilities?
If, as you state, academic diversity is never good - at which percentage of the top abilities does it make that negative difference?
Lower grades can be a result of not working hard enough, being distracted by other things, etc. However, perhaps more so than most other subjects, good grades can be achieved in math without working hard if you have natural ability, and without sufficient understanding you won’t do well however hard you work
How does that square with
Average GPAs for math majors are often amongst the lowest at many colleges.
?
I mean - how do you explain that the average GPA of math major are the lowest compared to other majors, when as a major math is not as popular as others, therefore probably mostly attractive to students that did reasonably well in it in hs and are interested in the topic. I would assume that this group statistically would include more students with natural ability than less, which should lead to higher GPAs…?
Interesting. This makes sense. Would you think the same is true once you hit the higher levels of math - I don’t know, maybe after linear algebra? Which, I am assuming (maybe wrongly?) would not be staple courses?
Thanks for keeping us updated on the college search! I love interesting stories, and this is definitely one of them!
Why, of course - I feel so very grateful for all the interesting and helpful input!
I sent the PhD lists on to the kid - he is thrilled and very thankful, asked me to thank you. I also mentioned that you thought his was an interesting story, his reaction: “What? Why???”
I think a lot of people hit a wall in math and once that happens it becomes hard to get good grades. However, before you get to that point it can be relatively easy (and not much work) to excel. Where that limit is depends on ability and it may not be obvious at HS - you can enjoy math enough to think you’ll major in it, and only find out your limits in college. D definitely didn’t want to do more math after Calc 3. But that was early on. If you hit those limits in junior year of college, you may just have to soldier on with the major.
Motivated students preparing for graduate school in a field such as, say, economics also will appear in math classes in topics such as differential equations, probability theory and real analysis.
You’re right there’s no way to ensure homogeneity in abilities. As @Twoin18 has explained, the differences at the right tail of the distribution are much greater than elsewhere along the curve. A course, any course, is taught based on the students who attend the class. If there’s significant disparity among students, it’s impossible to satisfy the need of every student in the class (or even the majority of the students in the class). More importantly, if the students aren’t with their academic peers, they either won’t be sufficiently challenged by their peers or they may feel they’re inadequately prepared (or even hopelessly behind).
Yes, for his safeties, your son will find greater diversity/disparity in abilities. Therefore, I’d recommend choosing his safeties based on the depth, breadth and the frequency of higher level math courses that are offered. Also take a look at the faculty and their background at the math department to get a sense of the depth of that department.
I definitely think it’s worth it to do a little more digging.