Help in picking career (CS/Engineering/Physics/???)

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>I am currently a freshman in college, enrolled in Computer Engineering at the University at Buffalo (see flowsheet here: Computer</a> Engineering - Students entering CEN Fall 2011 or Later Flowsheet). Because of AP credits I am on track to graduate in 3 years without an overload- which is nice because of saving money, time, etc. </p>

<p>I am good at Math and Physics (800 SAT Math, for example), and I find Calculus and differential equations to be particularly interesting. Also, I like electronics and circuits and have played around with digital logic design which I liked.</p>

<p>Currently I am enrolled in:
Honors Physics 1: Classical Mechanics and some Special Relativity
Calc 3: Multivariable
Intro to Computer Science 1: basically an intro to Object-oriented Programming with Java and a heavy emphasis on theory
World History
A seminar about community service and activism</p>

<p>I have a bunch of possible academic and career paths right now that I am considering. Here is a rough list:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Complete Computer Engineering degree (through electives I can "specialize" in software of hardware or a mix of the two), and go into:</p>

<ul>
<li>Software Engineering. This is where most people go I think. However, there are a few reservations:
a) I prefer not to work in a job where I sit at a cubicle all day and stare at code on a screen... Is that an unrealistic expectation in your opinion?
b) I am doing very well in Intro to CS. However, I find physics to be more interesting than the CS class.
c) I have to take a bunch of hardware and electronics courses for my major as you can see in the flowsheet I linked at the top. It would be a total waste of like 30 credit hours worth of knowledge that I would never even use, don't you think?</li>
<li>Hardware Engineering. This would be nice because it involves circuits and electronics which I like and find interesting. However, the job opportunities in this field are tiny in comparison to software. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says (Computer</a> Hardware Engineers : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics) that only 630 jobs per year will become available in harware.</li>
</ul></li>
<li><p>Change my major to Computer Science. This would be appropriate for a more software-oriented approach. However, analyzing the degree requirements (Computer</a> Science BS - Students entering CS Fall 2011 or Later Flowsheet) it doesn't seem to be as good or comprehensive of a program. </p></li>
<li><p>Get a minor in Physics (1 extra semester) or Management (1 extra year). Not sure if minors or worth anything though.</p></li>
<li><p>With 29 more credits (1 year), I can double major in Computer Engineering and Computational Physics. Or, with ~12 more credits (1 semester) I can double major in Computer Science and Engineering.</p></li>
<li><p>Go for academia. This is a toughie, since it sounds awesome to be a professor but I don't want to go for a Ph D right now. And I've heard academia is reeeaaally tough to get into nowadays. What if I got into a prestigious grad school? (MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc?) (Big "what if" though.)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>So, what do you guys know about the types of jobs, growth, pay, and opportunities in the following fields (and what steps should I take now to get there)?
- Software development
- Hardware design
- Mix of software and hardware??
- Modeling and Simulation
- Computational Physics - whether such a field even exists outside of academia
- Robotics (is this field for mechanical engineers or electrical and computer engineers? Sorry I don't know much about it. There is a Robotics club in my school though.)
- Any other potential career path I'm missing here???????</p>

<p>Any help in making a choice would be GREATLY appreciated!!!</p>

2

<p>If you’re this good follow what you’d like to do. From an intellectual point of view simulation and Comp Physics are quite interesting, but jobs are not as plentiful as in ho-hum design bathroom fan circuitry EE’s or CE’s :).</p>

3

<p>Since you say you can’t imagine a career as a software engineer, and yes, most of them do stare at hundreds, maybe thousands of lines of code for hours, but some of them do something else, such as database programming, data mining, etc., even though these types of occupations usually have their own titles, I will get to that later. However, it’s common for software engineers to do these jobs as they are usually and mostly the only ones being able to do them in the first place. It’s very important that you get involved. Studying is good, but doing an internship will help you answer many of your open questions. </p>

<p>I can’t tell you what a computer hardware engineer does, but there are a few companies specializing in hardware, particularly Texas Instruments, and many other companies. Why shouldn’t there be many jobs? Ever thought who has built your CPU? Your hard drive? Your GPU? Your graphing calculator? </p>

<p>A mix of both sounds interesting, and you could definitely learn a lot at once. However, do bits from each section really help you to get a job, assuming that you don’t mean a double major? </p>

<p>Modeling and simulation is done with programs such as Mathematica by Wolfram, and whatever else is out there (I’m not a statistician or analyst). Assuming that you mean this, what kind of jobs do you think are out there for these kind of people? </p>

<p>I don’t know anything about computational physics and how this could possibly land you a job at any computer or technology company. I let you research this or someone else answer. </p>

<p>A friend of mine (well, he’s like 10 years older than me) was studying computer science and chose artificial intelligence as his concentration. His senior project ended up being a robot being able to drive in circles obeying objects in front, behind, to the right or left of itself. In the end, he got a job at a company as a software engineer. What did this tell me? Many computer scientists end up being software engineers due to the high demand of this occupation. Why? Think about it. There is probably not one job out there that doesn’t use computers. Accountants, analysts, economists, mathematicians, physicists, doctors, lawyers, and millions of others are depended on programs like Excel, Word, Mathematica and other programs. These programs were made by software engineers. The graphing calculators used to teach high school students about functions was made by software and hardware engineers, and this forum was made by software engineers which is being sold as a license to thousands of others. Without software engineers everyone would have a hard time doing their own jobs. </p>

<p>As I said already, get hands-on experience with internships aimed at/available for freshmen students in these areas. Do a lot of research on them, and ask your professors. I hope I could help in some way.</p>

4

<p>

Realistically, much of your work - ostensibly, the work you’d be paid to do - would involve exactly this. It’s simply the nature of the beast. Software is written and runs on computers.</p>

<p>

Few software developers would get any tangible benefit from having studied more than basic physics in school; few would be able to meaningfully apply more than basic physics to their jobs.</p>

<p>

Yes, I think it’s reasonable to say that most software developers won’t find this terribly useful. Of course, I wouldn’t call studying what you enjoy a waste.</p>

<p>

That may not include replacing existing employees that are retiring. Roughly, you could divide the number of current hardware engineers by 40, and assume that that many jobs will also become available each year (assuming roughly 40 year careers, and neglecting the fact that the workforce isn’t evenly distributed by age). Still, the observation is stark: there are a lot fewer job opportunities, and I find it hard to believe that supply is as low as demand.</p>

<p>

The CS BS program is associated with the engineering department and is not ABET-CAC accredited, nor do they appear to be seeking ABET-CAC accreditation. Other programs of theirs are accredited, including the Computer Engineering program, and this is not a program I have heard much about. I would advise you to strongly consider all other options in light of these observations; the Computer Engineering program is a better bet, even with the “wasted” classes.</p>

<p>

Likely not worth it, unless you go into it realizing that you’re doing it to pursue academic interests, not for a tangible benefit.</p>

<p>

No point double majoring in computer science and computer engineering. Just take free electives (or extra courses) in CS courses of interest. There are lots of threads here about what courses a CS major should take to be prepared for work as a software developer.</p>

<p>

Maybe this is wrong, but my impression has always been that job prospects are even worse in academia than they are for hardware engineers. Prepare to stay in school an extra 4+ years for a PhD, then do a post-doc for poverty-level pay, then - if you’re lucky - get a tenure-track position where you work 80-hour weeks herding cats, begging for funding and writing papers until your fingers bleed. Some people love what they do so much that it’s worth it.</p>

5

<p>Thanks for your input.</p>

<p>It seems to me that a lot of “hardware” and electronics companies are non-US companies: Toshiba, Dell, Samsung, HP, LG, etc. While most software-oriented companies, Microsoft, Google, Facebook/Twitter, etc are located in the US. Apple is both I think.</p>

<p>So it does seem like there is definitely more opportunity in software than hardware nowadays. In that case, it would be better to “specialize” in software, rather than doing a “mix of both” since a jack-of-all-trades is useless. </p>

<p>One thing I was interested in when I said modeling and simulation were real-life applications. Of course there are many theoretical science applications too - I know someone getting a PhD who is using computer science to model atomic particles and how they interact. This could also be useful for modeling things like black holes, supernovas, even quantum mechanics perhaps. However, this is a purely academic field - not many jobs in the “real world.”</p>

<p>What I was interested in is “real-world” simulation/modeling - aircraft, cars, spacecraft, etc. Also, it would be really cool to develop realistic video games (how awesome would it be to help make something like Assassin’s creed?? :slight_smile: :slight_smile: ) </p>

<p>Additionally, you mentioned internships - I don’t think I can get an internship know since I only know some basic programming. But I think I’ll try for some job shadowing, if companies offer that.</p>

6

<p>It doesn’t appear that you have a passion for software, so why do CS? What about double majoring in CE and physics?</p>

7

<p>If you look long enough, you’ll find out that there are many companies that don’t require you to be a master at programming. If you’ve taken a course on, per say, C++, and hell, you don’t even have to - there are many websites and tutorials teaching you what is what and what it does and how to do it, you’d only need a compiler - and that, is for free as well. If you want to get to the top, a degree alone won’t help you - certainly not in our generation. It’s all about experience, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s software engineering or accounting. The more experience the better. </p>

<p>I’d give up a lot just to intern at a company like Yahoo. I’d even work for free. Just to give you an insight on how competitive this market is.</p>

8

<p>

</p>

<p>Because I don’t want to work in academia, and that’s where pretty much all physicists go. I’d prefer to go into tech industry.</p>

<p>By the way, I’m not saying that I hate coding and suck at it. I’m actually pretty good at it and it is somewhat interesting. But I don’t want a job where I’d hunch over a computer screen and code away for hours. It’s just not my thing. Sitting at a desk in front of a computer for 2+ hours usually causes me back/neck pain and makes my eyes hurt… maybe I’ll just get used to it???</p>

<p>Also, does anyone know if Computational Physics even exists as a field outside of academia? My school’s website claims:

</p>

<p>(from: [UB</a> Undergraduate Catalog 2013-2014: Computational Physics : Overview](<a href=“http://undergrad-catalog.buffalo.edu/academicprograms/comphys.shtml]UB”>http://undergrad-catalog.buffalo.edu/academicprograms/comphys.shtml))</p>

<p>I’m sure most of that is bogus to make people sign up, however.
One area which is emerging is Quantum Computing - but that isn’t an established field yet unfortunately.</p>

9

<p>My son is a CS/math major and he never complains about being hunched over a computer. </p>

<p>If you don’t want to sit in front of a computer all day, why not become an experimental physicist? You can study physics and not have to go into academia. Minor in CS or CE.</p>

10

<p>jushyosaha604, Based on the description from the web site,</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Here is an example, EE deals with something very big to something very small. For example, computer, PCB are physically large. When you look into the components in them, you will find silicon which is very small. At the lowest level, the engnieers are dealing with polygons, and some raw properties associated with it. This is very advanced physics and math, usually not something a CS trained engineer can solve. </p>

<p>When you look at the design tools, they are mostly done by US companies. While these companies are not well known because it is not a growth industry anymore but their customers like Intel, Qualcomm, Broadcom, Apple, Samsung… are. </p>

<p>They hire a large number of many math/physics PhDs without CS background. You will find something similar in the “real world” fields you mentioned. For example, how do you substract a 3D solid cube from a 3D solid sphere. The skill to solve this type of problems is math or physics.</p>

11

<p>It seems like he wants to be an experimentalist rather than a theoritician. Not sure why he wants to do CS since it doesn’t seem appealing to him.</p>

<p>I worked with PhD physicists who enjoyed working in the lab. Nothing wrong with that.</p>

12

<p>The only people I know of who studied Physics are now adjunct professors. Which means they are probably on food stamps.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, people in CS that I know of are doing very well. My own father is a tenured CS professor at a teaching college. His college friends all ended up very successful, whether or not they went for a PhD or academia or industry or whatever. One of my dad’s friends created a software company then sold it later for $1.6 million.</p>

<p>Obviously, going after what I like the best is important, but one should also keep realistic market factors into account. With the economy the way it is there’s no point in taking any risk.</p>

<p>So maybe I should focus on becoming a Software Engineer now, and if I don’t like it I can return for Master’s/PhD in something like Computational Physics? Do you think that’s viable?
Obviously if I end up liking software engineering, there’d be no point in switching in the first place :P</p>

13

<p>My son is double majoring in CS and math. He really likes coding, but I think that combo will give him a lot of options if he wants to do something else down the road.</p>

14

<p>There is a difference between liking to code while being a student and liking to code while working for a company. Many people don’t realize that this major is heavily depended on experience, and as mentioned already, you will most likely not end up interning at Apple, Microsoft or Facebook, but probably a smaller company that might not even pay you anything at all, not even your apartment. I brought up this point somewhere, but some people just don’t like to hear about harsh realities. You will regret studying a major just for the money. Go for whatever you like more, independent from money if this is really something that bothers you too much. It will bother you more if you force yourself to like something.</p>

15

<p>It sounds like he’s trying to talk himself into CS even though he has no passion for it.</p>

16

<p>Thanks everyone for your input.</p>

<p>I think one important thing to look at is “transferability” of skills. People that study theoretical sciences such as Physics, Chemistry, Biology etc end up using programming a lot too. So, these (CS/E) skills are highly transferable - they can be applied to many different fields. Also, I never said I don’t like programming - I like it, but I’m finding physics class to be more interesting.</p>

<p>Also, do you guys think this article is accurate: wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html
It was written by a current Physics professor at the Washington University in St. Louis. He writes:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I found the line about becoming a programmer at 22 to be interesting. I’m sure there are many people on this thread that disagree, however.</p>

17

<p>Nothing interesting about getting a job as a computer programmer at 22. You don’t even need to go to college to become a programmer. If the writer means “programming” or a job as a software developer/engineer, then 22 is still a perfectly reasonable time to begin a career - right after the BS degree. Anybody who can code might stand a chance at getting a decent job in software, today, but counting on being able to break into a field in which you have no formal training and only experience also shared by many teenagers is a risky bet.</p>

<p>The description of what life is like for many PhDs seems to match my observations. I’ve seen this happen to lots of well-meaning, smart people.</p>

18

<p>So I was browsing other forums, including some on Physics Forums Career Guidance ([Career</a> Guidance Forum](<a href=“STEM Career Guidance Forum | Physics Forums”>STEM Career Guidance Forum | Physics Forums)), and there seems to be a pretty horrible outlook for people who study theoretical science for jobs in their field. Many of them do go on to become Software Engineers/Developers/Programmers, or are trying really hard to do so - such as this ([Jobs</a> for physics PhD’s / At what point can you claim to “know C++”?](<a href=“Jobs for physics PhD's / At what point can you claim to know C++ ?”>Jobs for physics PhD's / At what point can you claim to know C++ ?)) Physics PhD.</p>

<p>On this forum ([Physics</a> graduate prospects](<a href=“Physics graduate prospects”>Physics graduate prospects)) one person mentioned that they have a brother who has a bachelor’s in Physics and is now working as a Sofware developer, and loves his job. Interesting.</p>

<p>One example I’ve seen people give is that of Max Planck - apparently, while he was starting college in the 1870s, a professor told him not to study Physics because “almost everything” had been discovered already and they just needed to “fill in a few holes.” However, Planck went against his professor’s advice, saying he didn’t want to “discover new things;” rather, he just wanted to understand the fundamentals of the field… </p>

<p>…And he later became one of the founders of quantum theory :)</p>

<p>Obviously, there is no way to compare the 1870s with today. Back then, only the very elite had college degrees, and Western countries were rich from colonialism/industrialism so there was plenty of funding to go around. Simply not the case today.</p>

<p>However, I think I would compare my dilemma to Planck’s. I’m not interested in a job in Physics or doing research in Physics, or developing some new theory. I just like learning about how the universe works. The question is: is it even worth satisfying intellectual curiosities in this economy, when not even a good job is guaranteed…???</p>

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<p>You’re looking for someone to tell you otherwise, such as “go on to study” physics, although you know that this won’t maximize your chances of getting a job, not like a degree in C.S. would do. If you’re interested in learning something, you don’t need college. All you need is patience, will, and curiosity. My situation might be the same as yours - I like economics, I would probably study it too, I would like doing research in economics, I like the subject… but I have a stronger passion for CS. My interest is more or less equal, but I like creating things more than working in finance, real estate, consulting or accounting. I couldn’t imagine a future like that. Do you know what I’ve been doing? I’ve been reading books, academic journals and research papers on economics in my spare time of spare time, while programming or reading through programming forums is something I usually do everyday more than anything. </p>

<p>Again, you don’t need to go to college to satisfy your intellectual curiosities. All you need is the will, and maybe a few bucks if you like reading books. There are many resources, and yes, this is a controversial statement, as these resources (libraries, finding the right assignments, and going along with students in an actual college course) may be a hard thing to do for some, if financials and time consumption is a problem. However, the good news are that it is definitely not impossible to do.</p>