<p>I have the great fortune of deciding amongst several schools by May 1st. Most people have a few clear favorites at this point, but Ive find myself extremely enthusiastic about no fewer than six different schools. Ive visited them all but not at great times for example, I was at Carleton during a time when they did not have interviews or info sessions, and everybody was really cold and bundled up. I am considering all of the significant differences amongst them and still not finding any one that stands out above the others, so now I need to consider all of the little nuances. I was wondering if anyone, especially current students, alumni, or parents, could tell me a little about the following things (which normally wouldnt make or break a college decision) in relation to Carleton:</p>
<li> Professor-student interaction</li>
<li> How politically and socially activist are the students?</li>
<li> Is it easy to take out-of-major courses (for a science major, specifically)?</li>
<li> Whats the feel of the campus? Community-like? Friendly student body? Any clique-ishness? What are students like in general (in other words, whats the kind of person who would feel comfortable at Carleton)?</li>
<li> How is the administration, as far as efficiency and responsiveness? Are there a lot of problems with them?</li>
<li> How much time do people spend off campus, and what do they do there? How is the town of Northfield? I really liked how it looked when I visited, but I’m not sure what it actually has to offer.</li>
<li> I play cello, but Im not an über-serious musician. Is the orchestra competitive? Do the musical theater productions have a pit orchestra?</li>
</ol>
<p>Sorry if some of these questions are vague, but I want as much info as possible, so Im avoiding specific questions! I would so much appreciate answers to any of these questions. Thank you in advance!!!</p>
<p>Well, I didn’t really want to mention that since I thought people might tell me that those schools are in many ways different, and how could I be interested in all of them…</p>
<p>But the four that I am most seriously considering are Carleton, Brandeis, Hampshire, and New College of Florida. The other two are Clark University and Oberlin, but those two are giving me very little FA so are unlikely.</p>
<p>MY son and daughter both focused heavily on the professor- student dynamic when making their selections. My son finds the Profs interested in him, supportive, and open. He also finds them good teachers. THere’s lots of support for academic work, especially in the sciences. He has found a way to take nonscience classes including voice and acting. He also dances in Ebony and plays sports. It seems like most of his friends also have varied interests, are open and friendly, smart but not stuck up.
A good place really.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Professor-student interaction
Wonderful; very accessible, first name, many long time friendships created. There’s always a “fight” among classes during reunion-planning weekends to get faculty to their receptions, dinners, etc. Some organization touted Carleton as the most committed to teaching excellence (I’m hoping someone else can come up with the proper reference/quote/etc)</p></li>
<li><p>How politically and socially activist are the students?
I can’t speak directly to this wrt students. The college is committed to sustainability with a wind turbine (the first utility grade wind turbine in the country to be owned by a college), a green roof (the first student-designed and built green roof in the state of Minnesota and the first green roof project to use only plant species native to Minnesota), locally-grown food, and compostible utensils at reunions. </p></li>
<li><p>Is it easy to take out-of-major courses (for a science major, specifically)? Definitely, in fact that seems to me kind of core to the liberal arts concept. Anyone can take any course, including upper level, as long as they have met the pre-requisites. So you’ll find many science majors taking music lessons, working on theater productions, etc. </p></li>
<li><p>What’s the “feel” of the campus? Community-like? Friendly student body? Any clique-ishness? What are students like in general (in other words, what’s the “kind” of person who would feel comfortable at Carleton)?
residential community with lots of dorm and club sponsored activities. Frequently-used adjectives about the students: minnesota-nice, fun-loving, quirky, laid-back, “don’t take themselves seriously”<br>
Newsweek named Carleton the Most fun-loving college! " Here’s a high-flyin’ statistic provided by a school: Carleton has about “1.9 Frisbees per student,” says Paul Thiboutot, dean of admissions. Carleton is also the kind of place where the president tells a ghost story on Halloween." He also teaches a fly-fishing class.</p></li>
<li><p>How is the administration, as far as efficiency and responsiveness? Are there a lot of problems with them?<br>
I can’t speak for students, but several times recently on the parent maillist someone has commented on how responsive the administration has been to deal with an issue. One of the Dean’s is on the parent maillist and will respond directly to questions that come up. There’s a parent council that meets on campus several times a year and works with directly various admisnistrative departmentsincluding advising the president, from the perspective of parents of students and alumni, concerning matters of current interest to the College </p></li>
<li><p>How much time do people spend off campus, and what do they do there? How is the town of Northfield? I really liked how it looked when I visited, but I’m not sure what it actually has to offer.
Really nice town. Student focussed because of both St Olaf and Carleton. I’ll let current and recent students respond to how much time off campus. I have heard that there’s so much to do on-campus that kids don’t feel the need to head up to the Cits much.</p></li>
<li><p>I play ‘cello, but I’m not an über-serious musician. Is the orchestra competitive? Do the musical theater productions have a pit orchestra?<br>
I don’t believe the orchestra is competitive and I know there are many opportunities for playing in a wide variety of musical groups - both schools sponsored and student -run.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Hi, I’m an alumni. Here are some responses to your questions. Hope they Help!</p>
<ol>
<li> Professor Student interaction is very good. There are no graduate students, so you don’t have a graduate TA teaching class. The professors are clearly there for you outside of class. When I was there, I was invited to some professors homes a few times and my dept had an opportunity to have lunch with professors every other week. They were great with letters of recommendation getting my a nice internship after junior year and into graduate schools. I worked with a professor doing some research once over the six week long winter break too.
2.You’ll have no trouble finding politically and socially activt students at Carleton who are involved in a wide array of causes. Mostly left leaning. I did find that moderate or conservative views were accepted too, but the true activism was on the left side. Paul Wellstone(former US senator…died in a plane crash) was a Carleton prof who got his political start at Carleton. The Political activism of the students helped propel him to a Senate seat.</li>
<li> I was a Science major. It was the norm to take at least one non-science course per term even as a junior or senior. So it is not a problem at all to take a course outside of a science major. They even had(probably still have) something called scrunching a course. This is were you elect to take a course for a “S-Satisfactory” or “U-unsatisfactory” grade instead of A thru F. If you get above at least a C- you get and “S”. It was instituted to encourage students to take non-major course when they weren’t sure of their abilities in the subject matter. You can decide to “Scrunch” a course a day before final as long as you indicated you wanted the course potentially scrunched within the first couple weeks of the term.</li>
<li>Tough to say on this question. I didn’t feel clique-ishness. Students generally study pretty hard, and are always busy and kinda stressed. Graduate school is a goal for many students. Carleton is sorta set-up for students to be prepared for and go into grad school afterwards.</li>
<li>I had a positive impression of the administration. They did everything possible to solve all sorts of problems without getting parents or local officials involved…“What happens at Carleton stays at Carleton…;)” I even heard some strange stories about how they would work magic to get kids out of sticky situations they got themselves into on the study abroad terms. I never had any problems with administration. They seemed lenient and flexible to me. The big issues with the administration when I was there were that they wanted the dorms locked to non-Carleton students, wanted the on-campus bar to stop serving to underage students, and wanted the local liquor stores to stop delivering kegs to dorms(the administration wanted students to actually go pick the kegs up, show ID, and then bring the kegs back to the dorms). The administration got flack for these issues from students, but they were no doubt right.<br>
6.Northfield was a nice, scenic,historic, well-off, small town in Minnesota. I liked it. It has a bar were you find students all the time and a couple nice restaurants. It is close to the twin cities, however students don’t generally have cars so they need to take a bus to the cities which can be a hassle.
7.No idea on the cello thing.
Good luck!</li>
</ol>
<ol>
<li><p>Professor-student interaction
Profs are very accessible. All keep office hours most days of the week, most are very easy to reach by email and happy to answer questions, and some even give out their home numbers for questions that come up over the weekend (primarily about big papers and take-home exams). You’d almost certainly end up having coffee or dinner with a Carleton prof at some point in your time there. Obviously friendliness varies from person to person but most are chummy, talk about their families a lot, care about what students are interested in and use that in class instruction, etc. Most terms at least one of my profs would have the class over to their home for dinner or take us out for Indian food or pizza.</p></li>
<li><p>How politically and socially activist are the students?
If you ask someone who’s not super activist like me, they’ll say pretty engaged in activism. If you ask someone who is very engaged in activism, they’ll say that Carleton students are too apathetic. The true answer is probably somewhere in between. CarlDems are pretty active and do a good job of getting students to be aware of local MN races that we otherwise might have no idea are going on. Students are very interested in service, particularly summer and post-college opportunities, though this is typical of top liberal arts colleges.</p></li>
<li><p>Is it easy to take out-of-major courses (for a science major, specifically)?
Absolutely, very easy. You’ll have to take a good number outside your major just to graduate in any case. There are very few classes limited only to majors. Rough rule-of-thumb is 1/3 of your courses will be in your major, 1/3 will be outside your major meeting distribution requirements, and the other 1/3 is whatever you want.</p></li>
<li><p>What’s the “feel” of the campus? Community-like? Friendly student body? Any clique-ishness? What are students like in general (in other words, what’s the “kind” of person who would feel comfortable at Carleton)?
Very friendly, very strong sense of community. Not very cliquey. </p></li>
<li><p>How is the administration, as far as efficiency and responsiveness? Are there a lot of problems with them?
I’m not sure how to answer this question without more specifics. Campus offices vary widely in terms of accessibility to students and responsiveness. Things like getting a straightfoward special major approved or getting credit for off-campus programs are rather easy, but I’m not sure if that’s what you’re wondering about.</p></li>
<li><p>How much time do people spend off campus, and what do they do there? How is the town of Northfield? I really liked how it looked when I visited, but I’m not sure what it actually has to offer.
Not very much. People who are 21+ or have a fake ID might go out to a bar once a week to the Cow or wine night at the Tavern, but the bar scene isn’t huge. Going out to eat at Hogan Bros, Chapati, etc. is pretty common. I probably ate out with friends once a week. Some people go for coffee at Blue Mondays regularly. When the weather is nice, you might go wandering around Division St and the river for a couple of hours on the weekend. There’s honestly just too much going on on-campus for people to spend a lot of time in town, though, and Northfield is pretty adequate.</p></li>
<li><p>I play ‘cello, but I’m not an über-serious musician. Is the orchestra competitive? Do the musical theater productions have a pit orchestra?
I think most of the musicals do use a pit orchestra. I don’t get the impression that anything musical at Carleton is competitive, with the possible exception of a couple of the a cappella groups. You wouldn’t have any problems getting involved with orchestra or musicals.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>This decision really is pretty obvious since the none of the other schools are in the top 15 LACs. The only tough issue would be if you received far better FA.</p>
<p>I disagree completely with that statement. Colleges cannot be represented by a number. Those rankings are based on sketchy criteria and contain a great deal of nonresponse bias. Plus, there’s no such thing as a “best” school - only a best school for YOU. Carleton’s president would agree:
<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/x14709.xml[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/x14709.xml</a> (Swarthmore and other LACs’ statement on rankings)</p>
<p>There are a lot of things that Carleton has to offer that are unique and probably superior to other schools. However, there are a ton of aspects of Brandeis, Hampshire, New, Oberlin, etc. that are important to me and superior, for what I’m looking for, to Carleton. FWIW, Carleton DID give me better aid than some of those schools, but even so I’m not willing to count out a lesser-ranked but equally good (for me) school. Choosing a college should be about fit, not prestige, in my opinion.</p>
<p>P.S. Thanks to everyone for helpful and thoughtful responses!</p>
<p>I agree that exact rankings have little meaning say 5th versus 8th. But taken in groups of say ten the rankings do have some merit. No reasonable person would claim that a 30th ranked school such as Brandeis is of the same quality as the top ten universities. Likewise Oberlin is a very good LAC but again no one considers it in the top ten. The others on your list require no comment and would make sense if you received far better FA.</p>
<p>did you visit Hampshire?
They had the most dreadful and depressing dormitories that we saw anywhere! The campus facilities in general were not tremendously impressive but those freshman dorms were pretty bad.<br>
I agree with you about fit and the character of a campus…They are, in the long run, what can make or break your college experience.
Also, status and prestige only take you so far once you are a few years out of college.<br>
Good luck with your decision</p>
<p>College rankings are of course subjective and the popular USNWR rankings are no exception. Carelton College is well advised not to live or die on such rankings. In fact, the recent Forbes Magazine alternative rankings which emphasize undergraduate satisfaction and accomplishments ranked Carleton 54. In contrast, Forbes placed Brandeis 15th among research universities and 30th overall among all private univerities and LAC’s–a testament to its focus on undergraduate education and first-tier research. Larger schools, including some Ivies, were ranked much lower. </p>
<p>Other than its USNWR ranking, I’m not familiar with Carleton College, but I have no doubt it is a fine small liberal arts college. It appears to be located in a small town in Minnesota. Brandeis in contrast is a combination of small liberal arts college and world-class research university-with the smallest student body I believe (less than 800 in a class) of any top tier national research university matched with high-powered professors who actually teach in small classes. So, the research opportunities are tremendous… Plus it’s very close to Boston, which is the world’s best college town, but on its own suburban campus. Few other schools can quite match Brandeis’ special combination of attributes. Naturally, someone might prefer Carleton College . But any reasonable person should take note of the qualitative differences, not just subjective rankings. That’s my opinion.</p>
<p>The Forbes rankings rely heavily on, among other things, ratings on the ratemyprofessor.com website. The problem there is that Carleton students do not use that site because their internal communication system has professor reviews.</p>
<p>I didn’t mean to suggest that the USNWR rankings are perfect or should be the primary way students make decisions about schools. Much like SAT scores or IQ tests there is no perfect way to measure intelligence but these tests are the least worst. In the same way the USNWR College Rankings are closer to how most educated people would rank schools than any other ranking. Take the Forbes Rankings for instance that lists Wabash College and Centre College 12th and 13th respectively while Stanford is 23rd, Penn 61st, Cornell 71st , UCB 73rd, Georgetown 76th, ND 77th, and Duke 80th. Reasonable and knowledgeable people can disagree about schools a bit but the Forbes List is silly and that’s why no one takes it seriously. On the other hand if you asked educated people to list the best schools, most lists would look roughly similar to the USNWR Rankings though almost any school can vary by 5-10 places. My point was that the schools in GO27’s list are somewhat unusual in that they vary so widely in rankings. Most students with multiple admissions questions are deciding between Carleton and other highly selective schools such as U of Ch, NW, Wash U, Midd, Haverford,etc. The other schools in GO27’s list may be good for him/her but almost all other students would never consider them over Carleton except for financial reasons or maybe location. It appears to me that GO27’s college selection criteria are so person specific that I doubt input from this board will be helpful. By the way GO27 I’m sure you noticed that the statement from the Swarthmore</p>
<p>website just happened to be signed by the entire USNWR LAC top 20. This is similar to the Harvard Dean(which he did) going around the country telling everyone that the SAT has little meaning and should be eliminated, but yet then finding out that year after year that the 75% math/CR at Harvard is 1590. In the end the SAT’s do matter and some schools are better than others.</p>
<p>Socially, what I’ve seen at Carleton is that even the students I’d describe as…um…“socially challenged” find a niche and a circle of friends at Carleton. It’s a friendly place, they expend a lot of effort on creating social life within the dorms and beyond, and there are so many student groups for all interests that it’d be hard <em>not</em> to find kindred spirits unless you hole yourself up in your room all the time. As an adult bystander it’s tough for me to say if it’s cliquish or not, but I’ve heard students <em>say</em> that it’s not. </p>
<p>Re: the responsiveness of the administration, I guess it depends on what specifically you want them to respond to. But the major offices that affect your life as a student–the president, the dean of the college, the dean of students, the treasurer, the student activities office, etc.–are very accessible and open to students and their suggestions. The president has regular drop-in times for students, the treasurer has a weekly “Fridays with Fred” time when you can stop by his table at the student center. </p>
<p>Also, I’ve heard from students that it’s very easy for students to organize new things at Carleton. Pretty much if you have an idea and you want to do it and it’s not illegal or dangerous, you can get approval & funding for a student group, event, etc.</p>
<p>Northfield is a small, historic river town. Once you’ve seen the riverfront and the old buildings with their cute little shops & restaurants…well, you’ve pretty much seen Northfield. But it’s cute, it’s friendly, it’s safe, and with two colleges there’s a lot more going on in Northfield than in a typical town that size (17,000), including a more vibrant arts scene than you’d typically find. Also, it’s only about a 45-minute drive to the Twin Cities, and the college runs shuttle buses on weekends. </p>
<p>^^Thanks for the tip; it’s really nice that many schools have these blogs. Congrats on your decision! Thanks to lunitari for additional answers.</p>
<p>To SAY (point by point):</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I think it’s extremely offensive that you keep saying “reasonable people.” I don’t know much about Centre or Wabash, but I am 100% positive that those schools are better for some people than Harvard, Stanford, and even Carleton. Hence the reason why people go there. Not everyone goes to the best school to which they were accepted. Tons of people turn down Ivys or highly ranked LACs. I realize that Carleton has more prestige than the other schools on my list, but I would have no qualms about turning down their offer for Brandeis, Hampshire, or <em>GASP</em> a state school (ranked at #94, by the way) - New College. </p></li>
<li><p>I consider myself fairly reasonable and knowledgeable. I’ve done an insane amount of college research. If you asked me to rank the best schools, I’d probably tell you it’s impossible and hand you a list of abut 150. Is it that difficult to recognize that education is what you make of it and how you use the resources given to you, not the name of the school? I mean, Ken Burns graduated from Hampshire. Guess he’s not that successful though, because Hampshire’s not really that great a school. Brandeis has produced Tom Friedman and was co-founded by such no-names as Einstein, Maslow, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Leonard Bernstein. Clearly nothing compared to Carleton. New averages about 5 Fulbright scholars a year, but of course that’s nothing for a school of 750 students. I’m not trying to say that these schools are better than Carleton, just that it’s possible and entirely feasible that someone educated at any of them could end up being wildly successful; obviously, many of people get just as much or more out of a non-“top”-LAC/University education as they would from a Carleton education.</p></li>
<li><p>The fact that the Swarthmore statement was signed by other so-called “top” LACs just strengthens my assertion that rankings are misleading and atrocities to higher education. Why would schools ranked #1 (Williams, Amherst) or #3 (Swat) want to distance themselves entirely from the rankings? Because they don’t believe in them. I’m sure Swarthmore is honored to be ranked #3, but at the same time President Bloom is in effect saying that it’s bogus by refusing to publish his college’s amazing ranking. This is a very noble thing that these top-ranked presidents are doing to dissuade people from choosing a USNWR-approved school that is simply wrong for them. I also commend Harvard’s dean for his campaigning, and I think the high SAT scores that Harvard maintains is a result of the idea that, everything else being equal, something is going to make one applicant just a little bit more attractive than another.</p></li>
<li><p>I agree that some schools are better than others. But the way you’re putting down everything not Top 20, you would think that Clark, New, Hampshire, and Brandeis were community colleges…I bet I can name at least one program at each of those schools off the top of my head that is better than its counterpart at Carleton, and at least 5 aspects of each that for many people would place them above Carleton.</p></li>
<li><p>Finally, I read somewhere that Carleton has a little problem with elitism on campus. I didn’t really believe it, and wasn’t even completely sure what the students meant by that. But if the majority of students share SAY’s attitude, I can definitely understand how Carleton would be considered a bit “elitist.” I truly hope this is not the case and hopefully somebody will testify against this statement in posts to come. I noticed that the person who most promoted the “qualitative” argument in this thread is from Brandeis. Also, I spoke to a Brandeis student recently, who says she absolutely loves Brandeis but that any of my choices would be good ones, it’s what you do with your four years that really matters. I think these two examples of sensibility, maturity, and modesty (not trying to promote their school as better than others) speak volumes for Brandeis.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>SAY simply asserts that the ratings favoring his school are sensible while others are not. An analysis of USNWR versus Forbes is more useful and does show a correlation between the two–with certain differences including those based on student satisfaction and achievement. See: [Views:</a> Rankings Are Useful – But Go Beyond ‘U.S. News’ - Inside Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2008/08/28/vedder]Views:”>http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2008/08/28/vedder)</p>
<p>It’s no conicidence that Brandeis’ high ranking is reflected in its high-achieving alumni (despite its small size and relative youth)–to name just a few: Nobel Prize winner for chemistry Rod Mackinnon, Fields Medal winning physicist Edward Witten (often called “Einstein’s successor”), 3-time Pulitzer Prize winner Tom Friedman of the NY Times, The Earth is Flat etc; Mitch Albom of Tuesday’s with Morrie (about his Brandeis professor), the Creators/Producers of Friends; actress Debra Messing; activists Angela Davis and Abbie Hoffman; Robert FX Sillerman (billionaire businessman–currently owner of American Idol and Graceland) and Christy Hefner, former CEO of Playboy). </p>
<p>Once again, all ratings are subjective and should be one factor in selecting a college, but not a dispositive one. </p>
<p>“For example, among the national research universities, six of the top 15 schools in the U.S. News rankings did not make the Forbes top 15 – University of Pennsylvania, Duke University, Dartmouth College, Washington University in St. Louis, Cornell, and Johns Hopkins. Forbess top 15, however, includes Brown, Rice, Brandeis, Boston College, Tufts and the University of Virginia. Northwestern and Washington University in St. Louis are tied for 12th in U.S. News, but Forbes ranks Northwestern much higher (6th vs. 33rd) than Wash U among national research universities.”</p>
<p>Belated response to NEValu - thanks for your input - much appreciated! </p>
<p>The dorm I saw at Hampshire wasn’t too bad, but that’s not the first time I’ve heard negative things about Hampshire’s general maintenance. The campus looked fine to me but I guess the rumors are something to consider.</p>