<p>You know, Slipper, I understand you had a bad time at Columbia, and it was not the right school for you, but isn't it time to let it go?</p>
<p>The image of all your friends on the quad, running around all day with squirt guns, is your definition of school spirit. ANd the fact that you didn't have that experience at CU doesn't mean it doesn't happen there--my son has told many stories of traying, snowball fights, going to dances, etc. That's all part of his expereince there. But, yeah, he does spend most of his time with his *friends<a href="how%20come%20it's%20a%20clique%20when%20it's%20Columbia,%20but%20it's%20friends%20when%20it's%20Dartmouth?">/i</a></p>
<p>I don't hear about "closed" or "open" parties from him--he's not the big party type, so I guess if that kind of partying is what you're looking for, maybe it's less common there. But a campus life? yeah, it's there. To say that Columbia is different from any other campus in the country is ludicrous. I attended Michigan, and you know what? When I walked across the Diag, the chances were infintessimal that I would run into someone I know--and most students don't even live on campus after the first year or two. But no one ever said UM lacked for school spirit, however you choose to define it.</p>
<p>The Dartmouth/Princeton rah rah model is one kind of school--it's not the be all and end all of campus experiences. It's what you wanted--so it's great that you found it. The school my D started at had a similar party spirit atmosphere, she left for a much quirkier school--Wesleyan--which I'm sure you also would have hated. Each to his own. I never name the school she transfered from because it was not right for her, but that doesn't mean it was somehow "wrong."</p>
<p>Glad you found your type of school, but don't be so quick (and so persistent) to castigate another school because of your bad time. Thousands of other students are there, getting a good education, and having a ton of fun while doing so.</p>
<p>i agree w/garland. slipper's observation that columbia is a very serious, adult place is on the money. yet to write it off as a school lacking in community is a gross exaggeration. in addition, i'm sure that dartmouth students don't spend all that much time squirting each other with water guns and playing frisbee, as it's pretty damn cold up there for most of the year. as for the original question...both schools are obviously great. new york certainly provides a more stimulating atmosphere than palo alto. so if you want campus to be the center of your college experience, then take stanford. if you want a campus with a decently strong sense of community alongside a city with readily accessible alternatives, take columbia. in addition, think a bit about the core. if it's important to you to have read the major works in western literature and philosophy/political thought and to have basic exposure to western art/music, columbia takes just about any other school in the country. stanford's science is probably stronger than columbia's, but believe me, the pure science majors here are indredibly smart in their own right. in short, go for environment. needless to say, both schools are excellent options.</p>
<p>sac is correct
Stanford is geared more towards the science and math fields in terms of its strong points/departments.
If you want the better education for humanities, it is definitely Columbia. Their core curriculum makes it excellent in that.
I personally love Stanford because I absolutely love Northern Cal. but that's just me :)</p>
<p>Garland- I would have liked Wesleyan. People there STAY on campus. If I didn't attend to Dartmouth, I would have gone to Brown. Vassar is one of my favorite schools in the world. I don't think you understand my point.</p>
<p>Columbia is everything Wesleyan isn't: socially its sterile and corporate- empty on the weekends and people don't hang out together. I know many very happy Columbia students who couldn't imagine themselves anywhere else. But I also know unhappy students who probably could have made a better choice and jumped at Columbia when they saw the "beautiful campus" and "access to NYC". The truth is that "access to NYC" comes at a price you don't hear about on college tours. Perhaps I should keep my observations to myself, but having known many schools well Columbia doesn't compare in terms of school spirit. Its a great place (maybe the BEST place) for a more adult or quieter less social person (like it sounds like your son is)/ Also, I think its great for minorities into "minority scenes," so they all escape together into NYC. </p>
<p>But for someone seeking a typical college experience iit isn't that at all. Every other school in the Ivy League is.</p>
<p>The point is Columbia is a polarizing place, spend some serious time making sure you like it.</p>
<p>I go to Columbia, and while I do agree with slipper in some part, I feel like Columbia does have the best of both worlds. I can spend a weekend in Greenwich going to cafes and jazz clubs or explore the Lower East Side for spoken word venues, but I can also stay on campus and go to a frat party where I run into everybody from some girl I vaguely know from some sort of student organization to a guy that lives down the hall. Its NOT a typical college experience, but it really is what you make out of it. I would also like to point out that facebook does a lot for uniting people and advertising parties, but I know people here that stay on campus ALL the time and make it a "typical" college experience and others that don't. And when the weather is this nice out, EVERYBODY is camped out outside, reading, playing frisbee, fraterniziing on the steps. The campus is also really small, so whenever I'm walking around, I always run into people I know. Heck I always run into people in know in NYC. I also tell people Columbia is different, its not the typical college experience, but then I also don't appreciate someone who went to Columbia undergrad for one year at least five years ago to evaluate an undergrad experience. While I agree that the city and large graduate population makes Columbia have a more adult-ish feel, the freshman dorms are set up in a way that helps classmates unite and bond, and parties are always happening and open to everyone. Its not a typical college experience in terms of life does not REVOLVE around Columbia, but I definitely go to on campus events all the time and run into people I know.</p>
<p>The thing is I went to Columbia for grad school too, so I know it really well. I know a ton of Columbia undergrads (AND alumni). While Columbia "has" some frats and for a couple months a year people are on the steps, its not even close to other colleges where the whole campus seems to hang out together. Attend Bacchanal, then attend Spring Weekend at Brown, Spring Fling at Penn, or Green Key at Dartmouth and you'll see a real distinct difference. </p>
<p>The freshman dorm experience is great, but after that there's no real common dining hall, housing is scattered, the library is silentm, and after sophomore year the core is pretty much done. Students don't really own their own space (no one lives in houses), so the laid back parties other typical college activity becomes difficult. While there are campus events, they aren't well attended. Most of Columbia's social life is centered around smaller "cliques" and groups, rather than big campus events. Some like this, some don't; but you have to acknowledge NYC access comes at a price. It depends whether that's a price a person is willing to pay, some are and others arent.</p>
<p>The reason I said you would not have liked WEsleyan is because it's not centered around "big" campus events either. Sure, they have Wesfest, like those other gatherngs you mentioned, but at all of these places, that's only a couple days out of the year. </p>
<p>At Wes, people do stay on campus (when they're not traveling to Boston, NYC, etc) but they all go different ways. There's not one place to be, no big games, no bonfires, etc. There are different types of students, who tend to hang out with the same people.</p>
<p>I think at most schools, and for most students, the desire to go to big parties wanes after freshman year. Those schools where it doesn't, may be your type of school. Plenty others are different. You like rural and small with a cohesive school "spirit". columbia, like Chicago and BU and NYU and Northwestern and Michigan and many others, are big and urban. It's not "different" from any other school. It's just not like what you like. </p>
<p>I have to say, it is hard to imagine someone liking both Dartmouth and Wesleyan (or Vassar). They seem to be pretty different, to me.</p>
<p>I think you have a different perspective garland. </p>
<p>1) The Dartmouth bonfire is one event during homecoming- not a defining experience just as Wesfest is not. As for sports? Who cares. Its about the campus all staying on campus. Michigan is vibrant at night (I've been there for two weekends), Northwestern similarly is "happening." You feel the energy of the places, even if people are scattered everywhere. Columbia, NYU, and BU feel like Ghost Towns because the students AREN'T on campus. </p>
<p>2) The things uniting NU, Vassar, Dartmouth, Penn, Brown, (almost every college in the country besides the few urban ones) is a feeling of "laid-backness" that is difficult to quantify or perhaps even explain. Perhaps students not really "owning" any space has alot to do with this, and having too many options adds to it.</p>
<p>I think there is clearly a little bit of the same DNA embedded within both schools. It wasn't that long ago that they were both members of the Pentagonal Conference (the Little Three, plus Bowdoin and Dartmouth, they were credited a few years ago, in an Atlantic Monthly article, with inventing Early Decision as a way of protecting its turf against HYP.) And, Karl Furstenburg, Dartmouth's veteran dean of admissions is a Wesleyan alum. Likewise, Wesleyan has an active fraternity scene (small compared to Dartmouth's but definitely a part of the overall social fabric) and a small but devoted sports following; three different professional franchises have had Wesleyan alum at their helm at one time or another within the past year: the Boston Red Sox, The New England Patriots and the New York Jets.</p>
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I think its great for minorities into "minority scenes," so they all escape together into NYC.
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<p>Slipper -- When you keep talking about closed parties and cliques, why do I get the feeling you're talking about ethnic groups. Are you?</p>
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But for someone seeking a typical college experience iit isn't that at all. Every other school in the Ivy League is.
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This statement is just silly. What does the social life at Cornell have to do with the social life at Princeton? Harvard and Brown are not a whole lot alike socially, either. Which is "typical"? Harvard with its all-male finals clubs? Yale with its secret societies? Cornell, which not only doesn't have a residential college system, but where a large number of students live off campus? Or, Dartmouth, with its lack of diversity, and big frat/jock scene. The point is that they are not much alike and therefore no one of them can be called "typical."</p>
<p>I also think, grad school at Columbia or not, you are out of date. Pre -Instant messaging, text messaging, cell phones, facebook, blogs.</p>
<p>The idea that Columbia is for less social students is ridiculous. Students don't head out into NYC alone -- they head out in groups, sometimes big groups. Student groups sometimes rent clubs to party in. It's different than, say, Cornell, where many students live off campus and have parties in apartments, or Dartmouth where they stay on campus and go to frat parties. But that doesn't make it less social. </p>
<p>People aren't objecting to your preference of Dartmouth (or any other school) over Columbia, they are reacting to your very narrow definition of what is "typical" or what is social or what is fun, which by implication makes everyone atypical whose idea of the ultimate college experience isn't to be drunk in the middle of the afternoon with everyone else on the campus.</p>
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<p>Or, Dartmouth, with its lack of diversity, and big frat/jock scene.</p>
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<p>I just think I am much more in tune with the college scenes. Dartmouth is about 32% minority - more diverse than Brown, Princeton, and Cornell - and right alongside Yale and Penn - in terms of diversity. While less than 50% are in frats, only four-five out of 17 are "jock" houses, the rest are not at all. huge stereotype lingering from the 80s that's no longer valid.</p>
<p>Its a big frat scene but frats mean many different things. At big state schools its lines at doors, testosterone, brothers + girls only, etc.</p>
<p>At Dartmouth its open door, minorities are in frats, every party pretty much has the campus coming, everyone is aware of all the parties, and many are not based on sports teams. Pledging is relatively not serious compared to other schools. Its welcoming and unique, as most Ivy frat scenes are.</p>
<p>Sac- I have spent a weekend at every single Ivy. Harvard and Brown are actually very similar. In fact they are the two most similar Ivies.</p>
<p>Every Ivy except Columbia has:
1) Frats/ Eating Clubs/ Social Houses/ Residential Colleges: support a par of the social scene. Columbia has frats but they are very inclusive and rarely open their doors to outsiders.</p>
<p>2) Off-campus social scene based on STUDENT HOUSES.</p>
<p>3) University Dining Halls open for all four years. Lerner is nothing like these other places.</p>
<p>4) Social libraries.</p>
<p>All of which make a "typical" college experience where the CAMPUS supports the population rather than the city. I think any Columbia student would atest to the fact that its the most "unique" Ivy socially by a long-shot.</p>
<p>I feel like my arguments are not so hard to grasp. Columbia is an awesome school for a certain type, as I have asserted often. But the city's options, size of the school (tons of grad students), fragmentation (CC vs. BC vs. GS), lack of student owned space (off-campus houses), etc all serve to detract from the social scene, at least compared to other schools. Columbia is awesome for those who don't need that sense of community - but it is different.</p>
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<p>Slipper -- When you keep talking about closed parties and cliques, why do I get the feeling you're talking about ethnic groups. Are you?</p>
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<p>I am talking about ethnic cliques, lifestyle cliques, socio-economic cliques, drug based cliques - the same things that cliques are all over the world.</p>